Rifle infantry useless?

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 5:58 am

Hello.

Mike, thanks for the advice about tuning the preferences. Tested, but it breaks the balance... and I love historic ratings.

Tracer, good point! It was clear to me playing pbem too. Its more difficult to see against the AI. SMG squads were supressed by my rifle armed infantry and scouts... but if they returned fire they killed as if they were unsupressed, no visible difference.

It is a subject on balance. Those of you that say rifles are more realistic in version 6.1 have the reason. Rifleman mission is to protect the machinegun and take ground at close quarters and by hand to hand combat, they are not the real killers. But in previous versions, supressed SMG infantry, was less accurate and deadly. Now they can take supression and his lethality is the same... if you add infantry vulnerability (entire platoons blown away by single burst of shots), perhaps you will understand my point of view.

Thanks

tracer · Post by **tracer** » Fri Nov 02, 2001 9:34 am

Originally posted by Penetrator:
Eggsqueese me? Baking powder? I have never witnessed anything like what Tracer describes. There must have been something wrong with the preferences in that game, me thinks.

Wish it were as simple as a preference change! Like I mentioned, this was a PBEM game; the security features ensure that no changes are possible (plus the OOBs must match). I have a fresh (10 days ago) install with just the upgrade patches applied; only change I made to preferences was turning the soundtrack off.

I have no agenda here: just pointing out what I (and my opponent) experienced.

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 12:02 am

i find my US Ranger+Inf squads VERY useful. armed with the garand and M9 bazookas which were some of the best hand weapons in WW2....

if they had a better light mg they would be even better......

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 12:16 am

Originally posted by tracer:
Just realised my first post may not have been clear: my opponent's GE rifle squads were in stone buildings [snip]...the SMG returned fire and killed half his squad. Was I happy? Sure. Did it seem fair/accurate? No (I know, "all's fair in..."). Similar encounters (suppressed SMG squads causing large number of casualties at the limit of their range against infantry in buildings)happened a few times during this battle.
[snip]
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: tracer ]

Hmm, this does seem odd if it happens too often. Realistically there is some chance that a LMG burst hits as the infantry is popping out of windows to shoot, etc. so its not impossible.

One of the things that I consider is how rare are these kind of unexpected results? If you replay such a situation (or set up a test & replay it several times), how often do you get odd results. I have been learning about statistical analysis of this kind of thing. I have learned that you need about 30 repetitions to be valid. Within those 30 replays, plot the number killed and see if its a bell shaped curve (or just look at the numbers and see if the number of odd results are small compared to the number of expected results).

I expect that this kind of thing does not happen often, given the hundreds (?) of SMG/LMG shots in a battle. Thus I expect that this is not a bug but just modeling the fact that sometimes you get lucky.

bwj · Post by **bwj** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 12:17 am

Without doing a detailed ballistics analysis -both BA Rifles & SMGs have different strengths & weaknesses.

Rifles dominate in the 250+ meter bracket
SMGs dominate in the 150- meter bracket

If you were to look at #kill/minute of fire at range, I would estimate @500 meters a rifle squad would obtain 1 kill/minute while a SMG squad would get 0.01 (if that).

Rifles can/will slaughter SMG infantry in the open at medium+ range. SMGs will slaughter any opposing infantry at close- range.

tracer · Post by **tracer** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 5:09 am

Originally posted by Larry Holt:

Hmm, this does seem odd if it happens too often. Realistically there is some chance that a LMG burst hits as the infantry is popping out of windows to shoot, etc. so its not impossible.

I suppose it could just be a lucky streak. I've never noticed this increased SMG effectiveness vs AI, but it seems to happen quite often in PBEM battles. AFAIK the game engine works the same in both play modes...true?

And just to clarify: I'm only talking about the slot-1 weapon (submachinegun).

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 5:10 am

My credo is, if you can use a tank to fire on enemy infantry, it's far better to do that than let the infantry do it. With that in mind, my infantry fire is pretty few and far between, in any event, just today, as my whole Wehrmacht was mopp[ing up Frenchie in 6/40, one infantry squad fired on a French one at 100yds. with rifle from 2 elevations higher. The French squad took 8 losses and was destroyed.

Something else I noticed, for some reason Gerry ski squads never get smoke ammo.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 6:40 am

Some interesting data on rifle accuracy at http://www.cruffler.com/matchdb.html admitedly firings were under more ideal conditions than battlefield conditions and are individual rifles not the average of large numbers of rifles but a good starting point none the less . Results are in minute of angle at 100 yards ( aprox 1 inch per MOA ) but hard data and across a large spectrum of WW2 rifles .. hope to find similar info for SMG's ..but i am having no luck so far .. the search continues

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:24 pm

I have found a series of articles by the Guys over at crufflers that might help inform the disscusion here ... several articles on german and russian submachine guns as well as rifles and cartridge development ( think of cartridge developement as SPAmmo ver 1.0 thru 7.0 LOL)

ammo development and weapons trivia
http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-archive.html

reviews of currently available WW2 firearms ( check out the russian PPSH being marketed as a semiauto with a 71 round drum magazine )
http://www.cruffler.com/review-archive.html

detailed examination of a variety of WW2 small arms inculding a good article on german machine pistols/assault rifles at
http://www.cruffler.com/historic-archive.html

tracer · Post by **tracer** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:18 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
{snip}
reviews of currently available WW2 firearms ( check out the russian PPSH being marketed as a semiauto with a 71 round drum magazine ) {snip}

I remember the scene in the movie 'Stalingrad' where the German vet gives the greenie a PPSh (I think) and says "here...their's don't jam". I didn't realize they held that much ammo to boot.

Jarkko · Post by **Jarkko** » Mon Nov 05, 2001 7:14 pm

Originally posted by Penetrator:
What I have seen is this:
Modern bolt action rifles (Lee-Enfield, Kar98 etc) have accuracy 4, except Moisin-Nagant, 3.
SMGs in 9mm parabellum usually have accuracy 3.
PPSH: 7,62mm acc 2.
Thompson, .45cal acc 2.
M3 .45cal acc 1.
All these SMG have range 4.
Then there is the 7,65mm Suomi with accuracy 3, range 6(!). This weapon was well made with an unusually long barrel. I have a bad experience from knocking the Finns, but hmmm... 50% more range? After all, the cartridge is perhaps the biggest factor, and this one is not that strong. This makes it the ultimate "firehose" around. Granted of course, the Suomi has all these characteristics and then better. Food for thought.

Suomi SMG in the game is M/31, which is uses 9mm x 19. Only about 200 Suomi M/26 SMG were manufactured (in 7.65mm x 19) and they didn't see frontline use. Ammunition used in Suomi M/31 was a very hot load indeed (enough so to easily break practically all pistols available in that caliber). Suomi M/31 was 1st generation SMG with parts machined from solid steel and with extremely high quality barrels. They were also considered as weapons having such a prestige and quality that they were usually issued to best shooters of each squad. Most typical magasine type used in Suomi M/31 SMG was 70-round drum (which Soviets copied to their SMGs). Shortly said, it was extremely realible and accurate SMG with plenty of firepower. Problem was that it also was quite heavy and very expensive & difficult to manufacture.

Check:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:14 am

For Combat Leader, small arms data will come pretty much from the data tables of Ian Hogg's Greenhill Firearms Data Book.

It has all the performance data on pistols, SMG's Carbines, Rifles (including some ATR's) and MG's together with ammo data.

May not be 100% accurate, but Hogg is as respected an expert as they come and its all consistent. And it covers post Civil war to 1999.

Firepower will be a function of ROF, Muzzle velocity, bullet mass, magazine capacity and action type. There will be a preference dial for "infantry firepower" that will let you adjust the result to taste. If you want to scale a particular componat you will have to edit the OOB file.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Fri Nov 09, 2001 12:17 pm

Jarrko Interesting article on the Suomi ..thanks for the link
Small arms are a tricky issue, rate of fire range, accuracy, ect, are to a greater or lesser degree dependant on the operator. Given the variety of individual weapons and some really subtile operational differences it may be in fact difficult to effectively model some , but i might be worth trying ..sometimes even the names they are given confuse things even more ..
Take for example ..The Suomi SMG and the US M2 carbine ..very compareable weapons ..but the M2 is not even in the game as a auto firing assualt rifle, which it could be considered as, ( or a very accurate SMG like the Suomi, but having selectible fire option like the Suomi doesn't apparently ) .. some SMGs are designed with high rates of fire that make them practically useless at over 100 meters (2 hexes) because they can't be controled in full auto , but deadly at close range .. while others have lower rates of fire but are useful at longer ranges Like MP44..
I was thinking about this at the range today while firing my Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine and my Lee-Enfield.. they had about the same accuracy at 50 meters and 100 meters .. but at 150 meters the longer sight Radius of My No4 started making a difference .. also little things, like the Bolt cocking on opening or on closing made keeping the sight picture definately easier with the Enfield .. even thought the stock on the Mosin-Nagant is a better fit and a quicker pointer for me ... the most amazing little difference turned up ..thats is almost trivial on it's face .. but still could be serious in combat .. both weapons fire a Rimmed Cartridge and both are loaded via striper clips .. due to the Mosin-Nagants straight Magazine construction it is possible to insert the stripper clip in a manner that results in the cartridges catching on the rim of the round beneath them in the magazine while firing ( ie. the striper clips have a rightside and a wrongside up ..but it is not marked on the clip so you have to physically look to check when loading the M44 and other single stacked magazine weapons using rimmed cartridges ) , While staggarded Magazines like the Enfield and Mauser have the cartridges arranged in the stripper clips in such a fashion that it doesn't matter which end of the clip is inserted despite the rim ,( so long as the cartridges are properly loaded in the stripper clip to start with) .. On the Mosin improper loading would cause a jam and subsequent forcing of the bolt would only make things worse .. this means you would have to unload and then reload the magazine manually ... all things considered I can fire the Enfield twice as fast , with far less chance of a temporary jam..Small things and maybe not important in the overall picture .. but definately situation of not all bolt action rifles being equal ..
Similarily the Finnish Mosin-Nagants are different than their Russian twins, due to the Barrels being free floating on the Finnish Models ( even the captured ones , that were invariably modified with shims between the stock and the barrel among other things to improve accuracy ) resulting in at least twice the theorical accuracy of otherwise identical rifles ( see that first link I posted on thecruffler match data base ).
Similar equipment on different weapons make a big difference , for example the Finns do not seem to have high regard for the compensator on the Suomi and it didn't seem to offer much improvement according to Jarrko's link ..while the near Identical compensator on a Thompson SMG greatly improved both range and controlability in full auto fire...
Triva and Trival stuff maybe .. but then again maybe worthy of consideration and representation ..if not in SPWAW then maybe in CL/CA ..
Part of the developmental problems on some of the full sized cartridge firing semi auto weapons the Germans intially developed which were less than sucsessful,( as i understand things), due to jamming from feed problems with Rimmed Cartridges ..requiring a rimless cartridge like used in the MP44/StrumGeshutz for final sucess..
Again small details .. possibly not worthy of modeling .. but on the otherhand maybe they are ..