Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Innocent question[;)]: Is this (only) a result of the BTR-engine or of the fact that there was "real" flak employed in the ETO (seems to me that the Germans employed more and better flak than the Japanese).

innocent answer: what do you mean by "real" flak?

(And another innocent remark: and weren't Japanese 105mm AA guns only employed in fixed positions, somewhat heavy calibre to be moved around as we see it in the game...)

I wouldn't be suprised. I do know the Japanese player wont have enough to go around [;)]

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

innocent answer: what do you mean by "real" flak?

With "real" flak I simply mean that the Germans employed flak in numbers unknown to the Japanese (hmm, Brady would certainly disagree[;)], but according to what I've read, Japan was simply unable to produce similar amounts of AA guns).

[Nikademus]

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too [;)]

[Speedysteve]

Hi K,

With all respect to the Japanese you are comparing premier legaue football against 2nd division with regard to German vs Japanese flak.

This rings true in quantity, quality and tactics of the pieces used.

Regards,

Steven

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: ckk

Have you checked out Nik's Mod 3.0 Severely restricts 4E's and bombloads and enhances Base AA making low level bombing dangerous.
This along with basically halving transport capacity is making my war much longer[8D]

I know of "Nik's" mod... of course I do... [;)]

But, unfortunately, it contains one bad aspect - dive bombers are now almost useless due to changes...

This is why I would like to see some change in EXE to rectify this in "vanilla" WitP (i.e. original that most players use)!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

DB's are not "useless" [:-]

If attacking a very heavily defended AA target, they will suffer greater losses than players are used too however.

Some clarification here. My changes to AA will *NOT* suddenly make every base on the map a hornet's nest. Concentration of high numbers of flak guns will still be necessary. What the mod changes here is that one's efforts to concentrate their AA defences will now yield results vs. what one can see if they look at the Beer Wars AAR (my Allied opponent bombs at 6000 feet.....regardless of whether my base in question has AA LCU's or not)

Bases Like Pearl Harbor which has a high number of flak guns will be dangerous to DB's (which is why they are disabled on turn 1)

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too [;)]

Hi,

it's not that I disagree with you about the role flak plays in WITP. But I'm not convinced if your approach to that issue is the right one here. I've seen (even) Japanese flak to be quite devastating in PBEM when employed in large numbers. Because of this experience, I'm not sure if the problem (flak not efficient enough) is a result of the game engine or the stats used for AA guns. I know (because I've some pretty good sources about this) that the OOB misses lots of British/Indian/CW African AA units. Even when considering that base forces cover some AA regiments, the numbers of AA guns available, that is, the number of AA guns you can employ with combat units/base forces, do not nearly match the numbers that were available in India from 1942 onwards. Don't know if this is the same with the Japanese (have no valid data about this; but because the Japanese receive lots of base forces it may come close or at least closer to historical figures). In short: To me, it seems that the (underrated) efficiency of flak may be due to the game not having enough AA units. And that would rather be an OOB issue than a question of efficiency of AA guns...

K

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too [;)]

Hi,

it's not that I disagree with you about the role flak plays in WITP. But I'm not convinced if your approach to that issue is the right one here. I've seen (even) Japanese flak to be quite devastating in PBEM when employed in large numbers. Because of this experience, I'm not sure if the problem (flak not efficient enough) is a result of the game engine or the stats used for AA guns. I know (because I've some pretty good sources about this) that the OOB misses lots of British/Indian/CW African AA units. Even when considering that base forces cover some AA regiments, the numbers of AA guns available, that is, the number of AA guns you can employ with combat units/base forces, do not nearly match the numbers that were available in India from 1942 onwards. Don't know if this is the same with the Japanese (have no valid data about this; but because the Japanese receive lots of base forces it may come close or at least closer to historical figures). In short: To me, it seems that the (underrated) efficiency of flak may be due to the game not having enough AA units. And that would rather be an OOB issue than a question of efficiency of AA guns...

K

AA is almost useless now.

Please refer to my comprehensive tests:

"Comprehensive Port bombing testing WitP v1.5 (98 bombers vs. warships and cargo ships)..."

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... 6mpage%3D1


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

Completely understand your position. I'm not going to claim that my way is the only correct way. I am confident though that my mod will satisfy alot of player complaints though. I've put alot of effort into it.

My own views on land flak stem all the way back to UV days. I've always felt it was too weak, even in heavy concentrations. I still recall the tests that Frag did long before he became a test manager. BTR has also provided me with a good means for making comparisons using similar numbers of flak.

However in the end the guiding principle of the changes i've made are based largely on what i've observed in the game and also a breakdown of how the mechanics work. Oh...there's also a bit of history thrown in too. For example, in real life, the Japanese bombed Lunga at very high alts to avoid the two batteries of 90mms defending it. You dont need to worry about it in WitP.

So while i understand your viewpoint i have to disagree that its simply a matter of numbers. One should not have to concentrate ridiculous numbers of flak guns in order to deter a low level attack that in another similar wargame would produce results that would get a General cashiered.

All i can say is, give it a try. You may like it. By forcing planes to bomb at more realistic heights, this reduces the hits, allows bases to be more resliant and slows down pace.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

REPOST Excerpt

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

This scenarios are "Leo TEST Scenario #116.zip" (for day) and "Leo TEST Scenario #117.zip" (for night) - you can find them here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... m%3D856273

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 84


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
365 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
437 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sata, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Port hits 11
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 83


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
399 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 54


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

The devastation of ships in port is enormous... it's like shooting duck in a bathtub.. the only (possibly) good thing is that night time attack produced "only" 3 hits...


Note that Japanese AAA units consist of:

Heavy AA Rgt (5 units used):

105mm AA Gun x12
75mm AA Gun x12
13 mm AAMG (2) x 8


Thus there were (in total):

105mm AA Gun x60
75mm AA Gun x60
13 mm AAMG (2) x40

This is _TREMENDOUS_ number of muzzle power and large and relatively slow bombers flying at 10000 ft (= 3000 m = 3 km) should be easy easy targets...

Leo "Apollo11"

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

All i can say is, give it a try. You may like it. By forcing planes to bomb at more realistic heights, this reduces the hits, allows bases to be more resliant and slows down pace.

Well, you're right with this - everything that slows down the pace of the game is a good thing...

[Gen.Hoepner]

4engines allied night bombing.....that's the prority IMHO.
If used in mass ( 100/200 bombers) they can force you to abbandon any Af in their Huge range...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

DB's are not "useless" [:-]

If attacking a very heavily defended AA target, they will suffer greater losses than players are used too however.

When I tested (v3.x I think) I got dive bomber massacre.

Please run some comparative tests with current "vanilla" v1.063 WitP and your mod where dive bombers attack even modestly defended place (and where AA is present) - you can use both USN and IJN dive bombers.


Leo "Apollo11"

[Big B]

Am I mistaken - Or was the Luftwaffe on the verge of winning the Battle of Britain by attacking RAF airfields with twin engined bombers and putting them out of business? (before emphasis changed to London)

Seems no one wants to believe that is a realistic probability...

B

[Speedysteve]

Hi Big B,

Yes the strain on FC was immense at the end of August/early September. This was mainly due to the lack of decent pilots coming on board. The lack of trained pilots caused many casualties. Coupled with that the repetition of raids on places like Kenley led to a strain in 'The System'. Together they led to FC's lowest point.

I believe if the LW had carried on pummeling the vital airfields and radars over time FC would have no choice but to relocate to airfields further north out of escort range.

Not that Germany could have ventured with a seaborne invasion mind you [;)]

Steven

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi Big B,

Yes the strain on FC was immense at the end of August/early September. This was mainly due to the lack of decent pilots coming on board. The lack of trained pilots caused many casualties. Coupled with that the repetition of raids on places like Kenley led to a strain in 'The System'. Together they led to FC's lowest point.

I believe if the LW had carried on pummeling the vital airfields and radars over time FC would have no choice but to relocate to airfields further north out of escort range.

Not that Germany could have ventured with a seaborne invasion mind you [;)]

Steven

Thanks Speedy

I was just trying to illustrate that groups of 100-200 HVY bombers forcing you to vacate an airfield is not unrealistic at all...

B

[Nikademus]

Already have Leo. I have acknowledged that DB's will get the shaft somewhat however it is not in all places hence my distinction.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

4engines allied night bombing.....that's the prority IMHO.
If used in mass ( 100/200 bombers) they can force you to abbandon any Af in their Huge range...

Hi Hoepner,

you're completely right with this statement!

But, if you don't mind, I've followed your PBEM vs. mc for quite a long time now, and I'm certainly a fan of the AAR's coming with it (have not viewed your AAR for some time because I comment on mc's, but have followed the progress of that game from start). IMHO the problems with night-bombing you experience in that game is that while mc employs night-bombing to the extreme, you make use of extremely large day attacks on his bases (300+ bombers involved). Both of you seem to make good use of the fact that the game engine allows such concentration of air power (night and day) to a unrealistic degree.

To a certain degree, his use of night bombing seems to be a reaction to your own use of bombers, maybe his only counter to your moves (and vice versa).

It's not night bombing alone, it's the possibility to use large numbers of planes from relatively small bases that leads to rather frustrating results for both of you. Just my two (€) cent...

K

[invernomuto]

What do you say gentleman?

Agree, expecially on flak.

Bye!!!

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

4engines allied night bombing.....that's the prority IMHO.
If used in mass ( 100/200 bombers) they can force you to abbandon any Af in their Huge range...

Hi Hoepner,

you're completely right with this statement!

But, if you don't mind, I've followed your PBEM vs. mc for quite a long time now, and I'm certainly a fan of the AAR's coming with it (have not viewed your AAR for some time because I comment on mc's, but have followed the progress of that game from start). IMHO the problems with night-bombing you experience in that game is that while mc employs night-bombing to the extreme, you make use of extremely large day attacks on his bases (300+ bombers involved). Both of you seem to make good use of the fact that the game engine allows such concentration of air power (night and day) to a unrealistic degree.

To a certain degree, his use of night bombing seems to be a reaction to your own use of bombers, maybe his only counter to your moves (and vice versa).

It's not night bombing alone, it's the possibility to use large numbers of planes from relatively small bases that leads to rather frustrating results for both of you. Just my two (€) cent...

K

Hi K,

Yes, but with one HUGE difference:
Daylight bombings CAN be opposed using your fighters
Nightbombings CANNOT be opposed even when the first night fighters come into action( very late 42)

IMHO the difference really does matter.

My frustration is the inabilty to ha a chance of doing anything rather than abbandon the place.
The 4Es are already so damned strong that they can easily stand a fight against jap CAP....but at least there's a fight....during nighbombings is like shooting on the red-cross