Not seen this game.....

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho
You'll find the DG correction here:
ftp://209.164.73.216/pub/mods/campaign_ ... 20_Ground/

You would want to download the DG2.00.zip file

This includes the DG corrections.

Got it.. thanks for that.[:)]

[dudalb_slith]

It's a good sign that Matrix is in contact with the Blitz Club to get their input.
It sad the the original design team had left Talonsoft before DG was designed.

[Pippin]

Then came IIRC West Front (North Africa and well West Front). Then there was Rising Sun (land combat in the Pacific). Then they went back to East Front and did East Front II, which was basically reworked EF, without bugs and with many new scenarios and other features.

Do not forget Rising Sun GOLD.

[AKThor]

Best computer wargame ever made. Bar none. EF2 is the best of the series.

[Jim_von_Krieg]

And about to get MUCH better!

Jim von Krieg
Blitzkrieg CO

[kylenapoleon]

I agree, EF2 was great. I am really looking forward to its release under the Matrix banner.

[dudalb_slith]

BTW I have not heard of a game called "The Star and the Crescent" before. I assume it is a tactical level game on that Arab Israeli wars. Where can I get info on it since I am definently interested in it.

[wodin]

Its by ProSim. Under the Shrapnel games umbrella. Based on the ATF engine.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: dudalb

BTW I have not heard of a game called "The Star and the Crescent" before. I assume it is a tactical level game on that Arab Israeli wars. Where can I get info on it since I am definently interested in it.

A couple of links; Shrapnel and Prosim.

As usual, the Prosim one could do with an update (Pat Proctor is a very busy man!), but the downloads link at Shrapnel will take you to the demo (47 meg). I have nothing against Shrapnel (whoever published Dominions 2 would always be OK with me [:)] ),but to be honest the ATF series is one I really wish Matrix had got their hands on. I think they could have brought the games to a much wider audience than perhaps Shrapnel can manage, and they deserve it - they are easily the best 'modern' games out there at present IMHO. Realistic, while remaining very playable and entertaining.

[Hill_621]

Can hardly wait for this game. This series running on todays computers will be great. Liked a lot of the different series but really enjoyed the East Front stuff.

[Maxdfury]

So.... I shouldn't hold my breath for a release date I take it. Hmmm. Can anyone post a link to a site where I could order/DL these games? Thanks.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Maxdfury

So.... I shouldn't hold my breath for a release date I take it. Hmmm. Can anyone post a link to a site where I could order/DL these games? Thanks.

I don't think they will be that long in coming.. most of the work was already done, after all. I suspect any delay will have more to do with balancing release dates and the finances than getting the games finished.

When the Matrix editions are available, you will be able to get them via this site. You can still get the original releases (NWS sell them) , but as any new patches etc won't be compatible with the old versions its probably better to wait.

[civdiv]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Anybody have links to a fan site - I have not heard of this game before.

I'm really suprised that there are so many who really like this series. IMHO, it's just a VERY simplistic platoon based game (Units being platoons). It's basically Panzerblitz or Panzer Leader, if you used to play board games. The AI is lousy and the mechanics are EXTREMELY simplistic. I mean, it's like the level of, this platoon has 10 attack factors, this platoon gets 5 defense factors, the cpu rolls a six sided dice, and, the defender loses a step. It does have incremental losses, if I remember right. It's been years since I played this POS series. And Talonsoft, as they always did, released them as basically beta versions. They did that with everything they ever made. The games were terribly broken, and it took them literally months to fix them. If I remember right, EF was still broken when they released WF. And then when they finally fixed EF, they made it a new game (EFII), and tried to suck another $50 out of people.

I remember complaining to Talonsoft that they had finally fixed EF, and now we had to buy it again?!?! Mr. Rose (Did I get that name right?), said EFII was a vast improvement over EF. I asked him how. And he said, and I am not making this up;

"The ski troops go 'swish-swish' when they move". I shiite you not.

My advise, stay away from it, unless it's free. You can buy the whole series on EBay for $5.00, INCLUDING S&H. Here's an old review;

http://www.games.net/article_frame/arti ... ot&id=4789

Ah, Talonsoft, that brought back memories. Games that didn't even start on most people's computers when initially released. Games that listed a detailed, 200 page manual on the box, and then you opened the box and there was like a 12 page manual full of typos. Anybody remember that snafu? Or getting banned from their forums for the slightest complaint. Talonsoft is dead, and I am glad.

[lancerunolfsson]

These old Talonsoft games are the best entertainment dollars I have ever spent. They all worked fine on any computer I installed them on. They are very playble by E mail wich is somthing a lot of games can't say. And they look real good too. The fact that they remind me of Panzer blitz is one of the selling points. I started playing in the late 1960's when the only AI was playing both sides your self;^)

[Temple]

civdiv seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder [;)]

Yes, the games did have some problems that needed patches, but pretty much every PC wargame out there needed patches of some sort. However the games were in reasonably decent shape out of the box, certainly not broken. I will acknowledge the exception of Divided Ground, it wasn't in very good shape when released. Also I own pretty much every game Talonsoft put out and rarely had a problem getting one to run.

The Campaign Series was more simplistic than, say, Steel Panthers because the unit attributes didn't go down to the level of individual weapons and headcounts. Units had attributes of strength steps, attack and defence factors, morale and action points. Yes, they are more like older board games and in some ways that's the appeal. Something like the current winSPMBT from the Camo Workshop (based on the old Steel Panthers 2 game, but using the Steel Panthers 3 code base) have more detail, but still it's all based on subjective assignment of values to represent firepower and protection. What the Campaign Series does is abstract these values so you can look at a unit and figure out if it's more powerful or better protected or faster than the next guy without having to drill down into a submenu.

Another appeal of the CS is that the 3D maps and units actually looked pretty good (and still do). There's a real feel of playing miniatures with these games and it also made visual assessments of a battlefield easier than with a more astract 2D hex grid.

The AI wasn't brilliant, but there are few games out there with brilliant AI. It was good enough to give a challenge to most casual players. Unlike Norm Kogers TOAW series or John Tillers games over at HPS Sims, the AI isn't a "programmed opponent" (Koger's term). A PO has pre-scripted movements for it's formations from objective point to objective point. These could give a better battle the first time around since unusual moves and flanking attacks could be scripted, but had limited replay value. The Campaign Series (and Steel Panthers as well) AI would assess where the objectives are on the map and determine what to move where. This would sometimes result in some goofy moves, but it did mean that you could replay the battle and see something different out of the AI. As is almost always the case in computer wargames, the AI in CS is much better on defense than offense.

I don't know the situation where a 200 page rule book was promised and wasn't included, except for Divided Ground did have a small printed manual and the much bigger one on PDF. I don't remember if the box promised it or not. I do know I was disappointed with the smaller printed manual, but then Divided Ground was a pretty sloppy product overall. But don't judge the Campaign Series on DG, it was put out when the company was facing serious financial problems and was rushed out the door.

And civdiv's comments on EFII are just plain nonsense. After the first East Front, Talonsoft expanded the scope of the Campaign Series with West Front which greatly retooled the game engine. They put out East Front II as a new product and charged a new product price. It wasn't a "fix" for the first EF, so Talonsoft certainly wasn't obligated to give it away free. I do remember some kind of rebate for previous EF owners, but the details are hazy. Certainly many things were improved in EF2, but that doesn't mean that those features in EF were "broken".

As for being banned from the Talonsoft forums, well, that speaks for itself. Talonsoft wasn't providing an unrestricted public forum for rants and inappropriate language. A forum registration isn't an entitlement to ignore the rules of civil behavior and conduct. If you don't like their products, don't buy them. If you see a problem that needs to be identified, then say so. If you want to rant... hey, that's what Usenet is for [:D]

[JReb]

ORIGINAL: lancerunolfsson

I started playing in the late 1960's when the only AI was playing both sides your self;^)

and the AI really sucked....just at the appropriate time![:D]

[civdiv]

ORIGINAL: Temple

Yes, the games did have some problems that needed patches, but pretty much every PC wargame out there needed patches of some sort. However the games were in reasonably decent shape out of the box, certainly not broken. I will acknowledge the exception of Divided Ground, it wasn't in very good shape when released. Also I own pretty much every game Talonsoft put out and rarely had a problem getting one to run.

Did you read the review? It's not just my opinion. EF was just plain buggy when released, and WF was even worse. With WF they monkeyed around with the copy protection, which resulted in a large percentage of the purchasers not even being able to start the program. EF was pitiful when it first came out, just check out the reviews when it was first released, they averaged about a 6 out of 10.

In regards to Talonsoft's reputation, it was as a Beta build releaser. Look at Hidden and Dangerous, or this series, or Age of Sail II, etc. Talonsoft had a reputation for releasing buggy games, period. Read the reviews of just about any Talonsoft release.

The Campaign Series was more simplistic than, say, Steel Panthers because the unit attributes didn't go down to the level of individual weapons and headcounts. Units had attributes of strength steps, attack and defence factors, morale and action points. Yes, they are more like older board games and in some ways that's the appeal. Something like the current winSPMBT from the Camo Workshop (based on the old Steel Panthers 2 game, but using the Steel Panthers 3 code base) have more detail, but still it's all based on subjective assignment of values to represent firepower and protection. What the Campaign Series does is abstract these values so you can look at a unit and figure out if it's more powerful or better protected or faster than the next guy without having to drill down into a submenu.

I'm just letting people know its simplistic, especially by todays standards.

The AI wasn't brilliant, but there are few games out there with brilliant AI. It was good enough to give a challenge to most casual players. Unlike Norm Kogers TOAW series or John Tillers games over at HPS Sims, the AI isn't a "programmed opponent" (Koger's term). A PO has pre-scripted movements for it's formations from objective point to objective point. These could give a better battle the first time around since unusual moves and flanking attacks could be scripted, but had limited replay value. The Campaign Series (and Steel Panthers as well) AI would assess where the objectives are on the map and determine what to move where. This would sometimes result in some goofy moves, but it did mean that you could replay the battle and see something different out of the AI. As is almost always the case in computer wargames, the AI in CS is much better on defense than offense.

We aren't talking about TOAW, perhaps the best thing Talonsoft ever produced. We are talking about the campaign series. The AI was particularly lousy, with units sometimes just moving randomly, for no reason.

I don't know the situation where a 200 page rule book was promised and wasn't included, except for Divided Ground did have a small printed manual and the much bigger one on PDF. I don't remember if the box promised it or not. I do know I was disappointed with the smaller printed manual, but then Divided Ground was a pretty sloppy product overall. But don't judge the Campaign Series on DG, it was put out when the company was facing serious financial problems and was rushed out the door.

The manual issue was for EF when it was first released. Anyone who bought the game for the first few months got screwed on the manual. Initially Talonsoft said 'tough shiite', and then a bunch of people demanded refunds, as it said right on the box that the manual was like 200 pages. Eventually Talonsoft backed down, and we had to rip the front page off of our manauls and mail them in, and then we got the real manual.

And civdiv's comments on EFII are just plain nonsense. After the first East Front, Talonsoft expanded the scope of the Campaign Series with West Front which greatly retooled the game engine. They put out East Front II as a new product and charged a new product price. It wasn't a "fix" for the first EF, so Talonsoft certainly wasn't obligated to give it away free. I do remember some kind of rebate for previous EF owners, but the details are hazy. Certainly many things were improved in EF2, but that doesn't mean that those features in EF were "broken".

My comments were on EF and WF, not EFII, except EFII is just the version of EF that finally was worth a dang. Look at the reviews, my views are not a minority.

There's your opinion, and there's mine, and then there is the community. There seem to be a lot of people in love with the series here. Go look at the reviews for WF and EF out there. Or Age of Sail, or Hidden and Dangerous, or that Battle of Britain game. That's why they had financial troubles. So forgive me for sneering at EFII, which I haven't played. I got to play BETA tester for EF abd WF.

And I'm not trying to flame you, just disagreeing.

[Temple]

ORIGINAL: civdiv
And I'm not trying to flame you, just disagreeing.

No problem, your responses in your second posting were on point.

What got me motivated to respond was your original comment:

Ah, Talonsoft, that brought back memories. Games that didn't even start on most people's computers when initially released. Games that listed a detailed, 200 page manual on the box, and then you opened the box and there was like a 12 page manual full of typos. Anybody remember that snafu? Or getting banned from their forums for the slightest complaint. Talonsoft is dead, and I am glad.

I do see in your subsequent post you do acknowledge that Talonsoft did put out some good games like TOAW. Talonsoft had some great games and some stinkers, but there were a whole series of patches for East Front (as well as most other games) so at least they did try to repair the damage. I recognise that based upon the number of things that needed to be fixed in the original EF release it was like being a late beta tester. That's of course why so many people warn you to wait till the reviews come out! You said you never played EF2, that's a shame since a lot of features were added or improved in that version.

I did pull out my old copy of East Front and I even have the original sales receipt dated 10-31-1997, which means I was a first day purchaser (it's been a long time). I looked at the box and couldn't find mention of a 200 page manual, but then maybe you got a different box. Anyway, is did contain a 32 page manual, bigger than your 12 page recollection, but certainly not the kind of tomes we later saw from them. I also have the East Front Campaign CD1 package (purchased 4-18-98) which included a 192 page manual, that's probably why I didn't remember East Front as having a tiny manual. The Campaign CD1 package also did have a rebate coupon (I never sent it in!) for the original game, $10 back. Not a lot, but it's something. That new manual set the standard for the rest of the series, except of course Divided Ground which had a PDF full manual plus a printed excerpt.