Strategic bombing by fighters

[toddtreadway]

I agree that the 'shot at previously" peenalty should be cumulative.

[mcaryf]

If the shot at previously penalty were cumulative then it would make sense to severely reduce the ground attack value of planes as in reality no air units attacks ever totally destroyed a land unit of the size we are talking about in this game. It makes much better sense that the air units wear land units down so that other land units can defeat them.

Mike

[JanSorensen]

I most cases having a substantial superioty in numbers still win by virtue of making the enemy retreat. I fear that having the lowering of evasion be cumulative would bring more problems than it would solve. Maybe giving +1 on the die cumulatively could work by a full evasion hit is just too much imho.

[SGT Rice]

Uncle Joe said:

Ideas dont develop in a vaccuum and its easier to copy what you see than to invent it yourself. The game does not take this into account and it allows players to totally increase one aspect of their military at the expense of any others (unlike reality where parallel research occurs at a much cheaper rate). To reflect reality in a sequel game, players should receive 'free' research points in categories where other nations have increased beyond the base level. Either that or the cost of a certain research should decrease as other nations increase in ability there.

I agree ... the game's research system uses a "world standard" to establish a reference beyond which R&D becomes much more expensive ... but the world standard moved over the course of the war. What if one side effect of the WA "inventing" 8/8 infantry was to raise the world standard to 7/7 (making it a much cheaper proposition for Germany to develop 8/8s)?

Certainly plenty of historical justification for this:

The Germans studied the T-34 to design the Panther.
The US studied the Zero to design the Hellcat.
Everyone tried to imitate the German's blitzkrieg tactics ("Rommel you magnificient bastard, I read your book!").

[Forwarn45]

To reflect reality in a sequel game, players should receive 'free' research points in categories where other nations have increased beyond the base level. Either that or the cost of a certain research should decrease as other nations increase in ability there.

The free research idea is great and could help smooth out some of the anomolies with research! I can see problems with reducing the cost mid-game, however, when nations may be at different stages of research development.

[Forwarn45]

Just giving a couple lightbulbs in research to nations that are behind would be great. For instance, if Germany gets level 8 evasive infantry - the Allies could get 1 extra lightbulb if currently at level 7, and the Soviets could get 2 extra lightbulbs if still at level 6 (on top of the one they would have got when Germany went to 7). If the cost of current research for being above the world standard is higher, the bonus could be higher. In other words if a country would normally get 1 extra lightbulb but is researching a double-cost item, they could get 2.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: SGT Rice

What if one side effect of the WA "inventing" 8/8 infantry was to raise the world standard to 7/7 (making it a much cheaper proposition for Germany to develop 8/8s)?

I like this idea best. To simply have the world standard go up is simple and elegant. It does what is needed to make it a little cheaper to play catch up. The free light bulb idea is similar, but just adjusting the world standard is a cleaner approach.

[Forwarn45]

I can see some problems with raising the world standard. One is that it currently has a HUGE impact on research. If you are researching something 2 over the world standard, the cost is double. By raising the world standard at that point, the next person coming along gets the advance for half-price - a terrific bargain. In some instances, this would mean they would immediately get the advance if they were already half-way there, even if it was otherwise a few turns away. Going this far could well make the cure worse than the disease....

[Forwarn45]

I really need to think a second before I make my posts - to make them complete. I also wanted to mention that upping the world standard could be inequitable. As mentioned in the last post, you could often get things for 1/2 off. That also means that a country that has almost completed research of the new tech would then be in the same position as a country that is about 1/2 way there...... When you consider that research is supposed to also account for the cost of production and distribution of new equipment, this does not seem right and could create additional "gamey" play whereby countries research things 1/2 way and stop, waiting for free advances from the enemy.

[aletoledo]

really need to think a second before I make my posts - to make them complete. I also wanted to mention that upping the world standard could be inequitable. As mentioned in the last post, you could often get things for 1/2 off. That also means that a country that has almost completed research of the new tech would then be in the same position as a country that is about 1/2 way there...... When you consider that research is supposed to also account for the cost of production and distribution of new equipment, this does not seem right and could create additional "gamey" play whereby countries research things 1/2 way and stop, waiting for free advances from the enemy.

good point, I was going to post in favor for the idea, but you're exactly right.

if the world standard is raised then the top player will only have to pay a 2 above WS every time to get the next higher level. perhaps that works for infantry in some ways, but it wouldn't work for strat bombers bombers, which the axis never research. the allies would zoom up to a-bomb at very little cost.

to spin forewarn's idea of waiting till some else upgrades, you could tag team a research item. so russsia gets its tanks land attack for cheap since the WA are the ones who researched it and the WA get BB ship evasion cheaper because the russians researched it.

[Lebatron]

You are right Forwarn, I Didn't really think it over. The cure would be worse than the disease. Well I think the current research system is fine. Its primary flaw is the US Uber-units. But I'm really not to concerned with them anymore, since they are less likely to show up in my mod. The new US production mutiple that I have in place curbs some of that. But if you play the 1940 scenario, then yes it remains a problem.

[SGT Rice]

All good comments - the forum is really serving its purpose. I accept the critiques of simply raising the world standard; it could lead to some inequitable situations. But we still have the fact that game play suffers when one side races ahead with super units that its opponents can't match, and clear historical evidence that wartime technical advances weren't protected by patents ....

What about Uncle Joe's idea of granting free research points whenever a tech advance occurs? Is that a more even-handed solution?

The only other method I can think of would be completely separating R&D from production, i.e., you pay for the research, then you pay to upgrade existing units to the new standard. This would for example, allow Germany to match Allied 9/9 infantry with a small group of 9/9s, while still fighting the Russians with 6/6s, 7/7s.

But any such enhancement would have to wait for W@W2; it would require an enhanced game engine/GUI capable of tracking and displaying all the different generations of units that could possibly be generated over the course of the game.

[aletoledo]

What about Uncle Joe's idea of granting free research points whenever a tech advance occurs? Is that a more even-handed solution?

The only other method I can think of would be completely separating R&D from production, i.e., you pay for the research, then you pay to upgrade existing units to the new standard. This would for example, allow Germany to match Allied 9/9 infantry with a small group of 9/9s, while still fighting the Russians with 6/6s, 7/7s.

But any such enhancement would have to wait for W@W2;

I like both of these ideas also, I think harrybanana brought the second one up awhile ago. I fear you're correct though that we won't see that until a W@W2

[mcaryf]

I do quite like the general idea of the "world standard" going up because it is absolutely what did happen - just as examples the Germans equipped many of their units with captured Russian T-34 tanks, the British eventually discovered face hardened armour from the Germans etc. To get round the various concerns expressed perhaps the premium on R&D should relate to the extent to which you are ahead of the best of the forces in the sides against you. Thus if the WALLIES are researching heavy bombers and none of the Axis are, then the WALLIES work at an increasing premium whereas the Axis could subsequently start research on heavy bombers if they chose without any premium and similarly for any other technology. The extent to which the Russians and Western Allies exchanged research was extremely limited as was the exchange between the Germans and Japanese thus I do not see that either side should benefit from their own research, the information gathering was more from opponents examining captured equipment.

Thus there should always be some premium on players researching any level for the first time and this escalates if they are two levels ahead and so on.

To get round the "I will wait and steal the idea from my opponents" concern perhaps there should be a lag of 6 months before the removal of R&D premium for catch up is applied and perhaps the excess research that might have already been done should be lost rather than credited to the next level.

Mike

[lkendter]

I know one change to research I feel would really help is that old units don't all magically get the new abilities day one.

You spend production with the new arms for new units *or* to retrofit existing units. Units in isolated areas didn't get the newest tanks and planes. When the Germans put the jets in the air they were very hard to fight. However, all of the old planes didn't magically become jets.

I feel you should have to pay a production cost, but no population cost, to bring your old units up to speed.

An even better example is ships. If my first heavy fleets in the game are pre-war ships nothing will make these equal to later built ships.
I think each units keeping its rating from when built would solve the tech problem. Ships would be very hard to modernize, and it would take time to get the new and improved weapons to the front.

Do you think Germans in isolated fronts such as Norway had the most modern equipment?

[aletoledo]

lkendter, what you're suggesting with ships to to never make them upgradeable? that would deflate the naval combat quite a bit I believe, especially for subs.

after all if you combine the amount of time it takes to create a heavy fleet, which is about 3 years and add that to the year it takes to create an upgrade, I think it would be pointless to be trying to produce heavy fleets 4 years later with a 1 point upgrade.

also imagine the sub war. the axis wouldn't be able to really have any chance of their subs surviving until 1942, since production + upgrade wouldn't appear till two years. the only nice part about that is that light fleets would never be able to be produced to hit them (something approaching 4 years would be needed to research and then produce) and the range of airplanes ASW would be limited, so the subs would be immune outside of airplane range.

I think the time frame of the game is incompatible with requiring an upgrade to be in place before you start its production. if you say that the research just needs to be completed before the last day of the production, thats a little better. that way you could then queue up 20 subs and then just pause their construction on the final month, to be able to parcel out only a few as new upgrades become available. this seems just as magical though to begin a sub in 1940 and have it produced in 1945 with the latest technology of the day.

there has to be a degree of abstraction in any overall strategic game. even war in the pacific with its extreme amount of detail (plus its extreme length of time to play), abstracts upgrades for even the most remote isolated units.

[SGT Rice]

I think the time frame of the game is incompatible with requiring an upgrade to be in place before you start its production. if you say that the research just needs to be completed before the last day of the production, thats a little better. that way you could then queue up 20 subs and then just pause their construction on the final month, to be able to parcel out only a few as new upgrades become available. this seems just as magical though to begin a sub in 1940 and have it produced in 1945 with the latest technology of the day.

Part of what we're wrestling with is that not all upgrades are created equal ... for example, consider the upgrade options for heavy ships (HSs):

Three of these attributes - AIR COMBAT, GROUND COMBAT, and TORPEDOES - are examples where older WWI era vessels could be upgraded to put them on par with new units put in service during WWII. Note that these tech advances could be shared with LSs and CVs.

AIR COMBAT - simply a matter of retrofitting the old ships with modern high-volume AA batteries and fire control systems.

GROUND COMBAT - upgrade possible via installation of radar fire control systems and improved tactics (coordination with ground/air forward observers).

TORPEDOES - perhaps the simplest upgrade, only requires redesigning the ammunition, or at most installing new deck launchers if the new torpedoes had different physical dimensions.

Two of the upgradeable attributes - EVASION and SHIP COMBAT - are examples where older units could be upgraded, but only in a limited fashion (say one tech level) but could not practically be improved to equal new units produced during the war.

EVASION - Upgrade possible through increased/redesigned armor (i.e., adding torpedo blisters, increased deck armor), improved damage control methods. But not really feasible to turn the 34000 ton, 21 knot USS Arizona into the 45000 ton, 33 knot USS Iowa.

SHIP COMBAT - Upgrade possible by retrofitting older ships with radar fire control; like EVASION this still wouldn't put the older ships on par with the newest BBs armed with the the most modern main batteries (15/16/18 inch).

The last attribute, SPEED (aka RANGE) is a special case; the old unit's inherent range wasn't really upgradeable (the Arizona would never sail as far as the Iowa), but upgrading was possible through construction of specialized fleet oilers and other resupply vessels. US navy did this in a big way; another tech advance that applied equally to CVs and LSs. But what's really happening is creation of another unit class - the fleet train - a level of detail many folks probably don't want in W@W.

[Daykeras]

Why not increase world standard but have it not affect things already being researched? Then to add more to it why not make it only kick in when the difference is more than 2?

So WA creates 8-8 Infantry. So the world standard becomes 6-6, however you still have to research 1 lvl up (at the cost of whatever lvl you're at) to get there. So if you have 3-3 to get 6-6 you need to pay enough to get 4-4. This way you see what they have and then research what they've got, but it only kicks in with a 2 or more difference. This will let you catch up within 2 of anything relatively quickly, but still let them keep the edge.

The good news is your 2 under would be MUCH cheaper than their 2 under, however when you hit the same as them 8-8 your cost reverts back to regular and stays that way until someone passes you.

It's really complicated and I'm not explaining it right (it's too later. 3:00 am) but I think this would be a better approach. You still have to fully research 1 lvl up from where you are to get the beneifts and it doesn't let you totally catch up (maybe a 1 point difference instead of 2), and when you do catch up the cost goes back to normal so you can't abuse waiting to research.

[SeaMonkey]

The catch up philosophy was discussed even before WaW was released. I made the suggestion after being prompted by SC's successful use of that feature.

Joel commented it was an interesting idea, but would not make it in to the game for the release and now we see that it would indeed be a good addition to the game. Same thing happened with the SC evolution, the catch up technology made it in as one of Hubert's patches, a really great enhancement.

I think SGT Rice has it right, a simple elevation of the world standard. My thoughts are that it should not occur automatically and I'm not sure it should mirror the top level that has been attained.

Thinking in the reality of the proposal, reverse engineering, captured technology, and espionage acquisition should all take time for the opposing sides to implement. Therefor I believe there should be a two turn(6 month) delay of the World Standard elevation to the highest obtained level.

This would give the pioneering side a two turn advantage in applying their tech edge before the other belligerents have the opportunity to catch up. The lagging sides will still have to make the investment necessary to attain the highest level but the dedication level of PPs will not be as great as the developmental side.

This would inject another strategical dimension to the game for the players to ponder and simulates the reality of what actually happened with the proliferation of technological advancements.

[Daykeras]

You cannot increase the world standard like that for many reasons.

First one that occured to me is abuse by the allies... WAllies increase Infantry, and Russia increases Air power and china reaps all the benefits for free and the Wallies and Ruskies both get major bonuses... The Axis powers would be even further behind the power curve... Sure they get a bonus too, but they get it in things they had to research just to stop the super units being thrown at them.

So the Wallies 8-8 infantry makes a world standard of 6-6 or 7-7. That's nice except Germany would need to already have 6-6 or better to stop the 8-8s, so they don't benefit at all when it kicks in. Japan too. All this means is China suddenly becomes a bigger problem for Japan.

This is not a solution. This only generates more problems.

The best solution would be for every 1 lvl above you they are in something you get a reduced cost to research. So if you're 4-4 and they're 5-5 you only have to pay 3/4ths of the usual cost to get to 5-5. This will prevent Germany suiciding troops for cheaper research, and instead forcusing on more for defense. Then when they have 6-6 and you have 4-4 let it be half cost. 7-7 is 1/3. 8-8 is 1/4. 9-9 would then make reaching 5-5 from 4-4 1/8th the cost.

This would only apply to countries you are not allied with.

At least that's how I'd try and solve it. But increasing a world standard will just make matters worse, not better... Unless you're saying give the enemy an automatic lvl up in a research class... which would then be unbalanced. So Germany's 8-8 vrs Wallies 9-9 suddenly becomes a 9-9 as well.