More Mortar Musings

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 10:15 pm

Seems I missed a few in the France OOB:

017 - 60mm Mtr Sqd (2 tubes) crew of 2 (should be 4?)
018 - 81mm Mtr Sqd (2 tubes) crew of 3 (should be 6?)
095 - 2" Mtr Sqd (1 tube) crew of 6 (seems high)

Also in Free France OOB:
095 - 2" Mtr Sqd (1 tube) crew of 6 (same as France OOB)

And in Hungary OOB:
067 - 50mm Mortar (2 tubes) crew of 4 (should be 8 maybe since 068 50mm Mortar single tube has a crew of 4 as well?)

Another in Poland OOB:
136 - 82mm mortar (2 tubes) crew of 5 (should be 10?)

Hope this helps,
Brian

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]</p>

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Fri Dec 14, 2001 10:23 pm

Mortars in SPWAW piss me off. A bit anyway. They are definitely among the less well represented weapons in the game, in that they are far too lethal. They are given warhead and kill values similar to guns of the same calibre. Ex: 120mm mortar and 122mm howitzer have the exact same kill and warhead rating. What is wrong with this picture? Why buy (or produce) a large and heavy gun if it is no better than just a simple tube? The range difference is not a sufficient explanation. My sources tell me that mortars (except very heavy types) have a much smaller projectile and explosive content than guns of same calibre, and this was accurately reflected in early versions of SP. In the above case the 120mm mortar shell has only half the explosive filler of the 122mm gun shell. I have argued this case before (quite forcefully even), alas my words fell on stony ground. I can't refer to the earlier thread because the search feature is unavailable at the moment. This mortar problem was offset by the fact that the 2x 3x problem made mortars impotent and unattractive, but that is a thing of the past now. I dread to see future battlefields dominated by mortars. I plan to revise the OB's with less effective mortars, especially vis warhead size.

Thanks for everything, Matrix.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 2:30 am

IF you look at the lethality, you have to include trajectory and not just weight of filler.

Mortar rounds tend to have thinner structure (as they have low velocity) and thus tend to produce more smaller fragments than an artillery shell.

The high trajectory tends to distribute those fragments over a more uniform area than a low arc gun in particular, which prinmarily churns up earth (great agaisnt entrenchments, but not men moving in the open).

Specifically British war office analysis list teh effective "vulnerable areas" as:

25lber = 3000 sq ft 2" mtr = 2060 sqft
95mm = 3270 sq ft 3" mtr = 5300 sq ft
4.5" = 4200 sq ft 4.2"mtr = 9400 sq ft
5.5" = 5400 sq ft

General effectiveness against moving targets in the open:

3" mortar was twice as good as a 25 lber
4.2" was 3-4 times as good as 25lber and equal to the 100lb 5.5in.

If anything my conservatism in calling the mortar rounds a "wash" with similar artillery rounds (and in some cases slightly better) is overly conservative, based on the period analysis.

Why would you produce non-mortar artillery? RANGE. A 25lber had a much longer range than even a 4.2 in mortar. Mortars are "close support" weapons designed origanlly to fire from your trench into the other guys trench when you assaulted. Artillery had the range to be much more versitile and support across a geometrically larger area.

Arguments based on technical specificatiosn sometimes work and I use them a lot in the absensce of real world data. But where real world effectiveness data is available I factor it in, especially when it contradicts "rules of thumb" based on filler weight alone.

For good or ill Combat Leader uses a good deal of such data and not a few sacred cows will be offered up on its alter... <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 3:58 am

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten me (us). I was aware that mortars had some advantage over regular shells in the number of fragments produced, which would justify a similar or better kill factor, and I really have/had no beef with that. I did not realise that it translated into "area lethality" superior to artillery shells. Or does it? Do the slower, lighter, but more numerous fragments have the same lethality in "adjacent hexes" (similar radius of lethality) as the products of artillery impact?

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:05 am

BTW, the knee mortar has warhead 3 in Chinese nationalist OB, 2 everywhere else.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:16 am

Another good question Penetrator, the answer depends.

THE best site on the web for such info is :

http://salts.britwar.co.uk/salt5.htm

Wherein you will find:

WO 291/128 A theory of fragmentation.

The table below shows the "vulnerable areas" of various weapons, in square feet, making no allowance for ground effect. Protection levels shown are in thicknesses of mild steel in inches. Fragment velocities are in feet per second.

Weapon
Filling
Frag vel
No prot
¼ inch
½ inch
1 inch
2 inches

25 pdr
TNT
2200
3000
550

Amatol 50/50
1800
2650

Amatol 60/40
1800
2000
300

Ford steel
"
1800
3000
130

95mm
TNT
3200
3270
780
140

Amatol 50/50
2800
3600

5.5"
80lb shell
Amatol 50/50
2750
5400
1470
500

100lb shell
Amatol 70/30
2100
5600
1400
330

3" 20cwt
TNT
1800
1950

4.5-inch
"
1900
4200
800

Bofors 40mm
"
2500
500

Oerlikon 20mm
"
2650
220

3" U.P.
"
4500
3450
600

3" mortar
steel
Amatol 80/20
3000
8500
1100

4.2" mortar
"
3000
9400
1900
300

20lb "F" bomb
"
3500
9100
2100
400

40lb GP bomb
Amatol 60/40
3500
12750
3900
1200

250lb GP bomb
"
5000
38400
17400
9500
2500

500lb GP bomb
"
"
45400
22900
14200
5100
350

1000lb GP bomb
"
"
68100
34600
21400
8400
440

250lb MC bomb
"
6500
35000
14300
7600
2000

500lb MC bomb
"
"
40000
19500
11900
4600
400

1000lb MC bomb
"
"
62700
31600
20100
8400
1100

The vulnerable area for the 2-in mortar bomb (filled with baratol) is quoted as 2060 square feet by Professor Zuckerman, calculated as 1800–1900 square feet in theory. Figures for 3-in mortar including ground effect are 5,350 sq ft for the 7½ lb bomb, 5,700 sq ft for the 10lb bomb.

The expected difference in performance between GP and MC bombs was not shown.
=------------------------------------

As you can see results on the effect at range and against protected targets varies with composition of HE and case material.

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 6:28 am

Wellwell I'm soaked. You've got me convinced. Thanks again for spending time on us nitpickers. Only wish I had caught your ear the first time around <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
And thanks for the link. This really looks like a juicy page.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 8:22 am

The more i look at this the more I am convinced that single mortars at comapany level is the way to go.. the 46mm, 50mm, 2 inch, and arguably the 60mm have a greater chance of being used in the direct fire mode, which in and of itself is an arguement for a single tube unit ... the Historical TO&E for most nations supports the 1 per platoon or 3 per company distribution in more cases than not, and doctrine usually supports the distribution of the Heavy Weapons platoon assets among the maneuver platoons. The 9 mortars per company is not historically supporatble. The 3 mortar per platoon structure definately messes with the already limited transportation situation . And massing the 3 mortars in a company pool interfers with the Platoon XO unit calling the fire of the Platoon Mortar. 9 Mortars organic to the company , apropiately priced is going to raise the cost of purchasing an organic company by about 150 points on average.
I advocate returning the 46mm, 50mm, and 2 inch infantry mortars to the version 6.1 format and possibly making the US 60mm mortar an single tube attached to platoon in the same fashion, And focus the efforts to create a doctinally sound "Mortar Battery" unit at Bn/ Weapons company and above issue.. and work from there bearing in mind that a transportaion unit capable hauling such a large structure may have to be created ... if that is problematic ..then lets just go to single tube for all onboard mortars. and live with the ahistorical aspects of being able to direct single tubes balanced by the restictions inherient with C&C.

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 10:40 am

I believe the light mortars and medium/heavy mortars are really seperate issues and can be treated as such both within the OOBs and in discussions here.

First with respect to light mortars:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
The more i look at this the more I am convinced that single mortars at comapany level is the way to go.. the 46mm, 50mm, 2 inch, and arguably the 60mm have a greater chance of being used in the direct fire mode, which in and of itself is an arguement for a single tube unit ... the Historical TO&E for most nations supports the 1 per platoon or 3 per company distribution in more cases than not, and doctrine usually supports the distribution of the Heavy Weapons platoon assets among the maneuver platoons. The 9 mortars per company is not historically supporatble. The 3 mortar per platoon structure definately messes with the already limited transportation situation . And massing the 3 mortars in a company pool interfers with the Platoon XO unit calling the fire of the Platoon Mortar. 9 Mortars organic to the company , apropiately priced is going to raise the cost of purchasing an organic company by about 150 points on average.
I advocate returning the 46mm, 50mm, and 2 inch infantry mortars to the version 6.1 format and possibly making the US 60mm mortar an single tube attached to platoon in the same fashion,

With the exception of the US 60mm mortar in Rifle Company formations, I agree with AmmoSgt on the light mortar issue. However none of the US Army WWII rifle company TOEs I have seen thus far show the individual tubes of the company 60mm mortar section being split amongst the platoons. I believe the solution I've used in the Mortar Mod OOBs for the US Army 60mm mortar case should work fine.

There may, of course, be similar situations requiring company level light mortar section deployment with other country's TOEs that I'm unfamiliar with.

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
And focus the efforts to create a doctinally sound "Mortar Battery" unit at Bn/ Weapons company and above issue.. and work from there bearing in mind that a transportaion unit capable hauling such a large structure may have to be created ... if that is problematic ..then lets just go to single tube for all onboard mortars. and live with the ahistorical aspects of being able to direct single tubes balanced by the restictions inherient with C&C.

This has really been the primary thrust of my Mortar Mod OOBs. The old v6.1 OOB solution didn't work (the multiplier problem), Paul's solution works as far as ROF goes but due to the way the engine handles weapons in positions 2 thru 4 in indirect fire, accuracy for tubes in those positions is horrible. What I've done is to basically 'trick' the engine into thinking each multiple tube medium or heavy mortar battery has only one tube but that single tube has the ROF, ammo, cost, crew size, etc of the multiple tube unit.

The *only* problem with this solution, outside of the need to rename the units slightly adding an x2 or x3 to the name to avoid player confusion, is that if weapons breakdown is enabled the new representation is 2x to 3x more likely to break down and a single breakdown takes out the entire unit instead of just a single tube.

For me it's a simple choice, correct ROF, accuracy, unit composition, and C&C operation vs the possible need to disable weapon breakdowns.

Now if the v6.1 and v7.0 medium and heavy mortars are organized incorrectly in accordance with historically correct TOEs - well that's something completely outside my present knowledge. I've assumed the medium and heavy mortar organization in the OOBs is either the correct one or near as is possible for simulation purposes.

Summary:
To this point with the Mortar Mod OOBs I have explicity avoided making any changes beyond the minimal required unit data changes. In order to fully address the problem as stated by AmmoSgt it will be necessary to modify formations as well and perhaps add a unit or two to certain OOBs.

While I'm fine with this as a concept, in fact I do it all the time for my own campaigns, my concern is that as soon as that line is crossed we get into a scenario compatibility problem - especially with the user defined campaigns and the published Mega Campaigns. I'd *really* prefer to avoid sticking my hand into that hornet's nest if I can avoid it.

Thanks,
Brian

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:12 am

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Brian ............
I guess basically my question is , is the Intent to group the infantry mortars at Company level , thus striping them from platoon level ( and removing them from Platoon HQ control)? .. or was the intent to fix a problem with the Mortar Batteries at Higher echelon levels and it just ran away and spilled over and started fixing a problem that didn't exist with the single tube Infantry mortars at platoon level ?

This I suspect.

The light mortar formations (Lt Mortar Sec) etc should be replaced with a section containing two units, i.e. a unit in slot one and a unit in slot two. The Polish light mortars should not be compromised to fit the mold.
And the platoon light mortar is coded to work directly from the platoon commanders command. Placing the light mortar in a formation of it's own was never a good idea, rather a compromise to satisfy TOE requirements.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:19 am

Originally posted by Brian Price:
Oops - just noticed that the Poland OOB's two 46mm GL squads both have the same number of men (4) even though one has two tubes. I think 091 (46mm GL Sqd x2) needs to have 8 men,
[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]

No, that second tube should not be there. It appears that the second tube has been added in error. There was only one tube per platoon.
Remove it.

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:47 am

My original intent was a simple, minimal unit data modification set of OOBs to correct light mortar indirect fire ROF and medium/heavy mortar indirect fire accuracy. Unfortunately, there are a number of possible TOE & formation issues with mortars in the v7.0 OOBs - so my original goal is impossible to achieve in a simple manner at this time.

There are far more issues here than meets the eye at first glance, while the number of mortar tubes per infantry platoon/company is one issue, so is the number of tubes/units per section/platoon of artillery. Thus the entire situation quickly becomes mired down in differences between TOEs for different countries and their different needs.

On top of this, some countries have little or no room in the Units portion of the OOB to allow for simple across the board solutions that require creation of one or more new units. While I at first thought the problem was restricted to only a few countries light mortars, I am now discovering that this is not entirely the case - it is the general case but there are exceptions.

While for light mortars, in all but a few cases, I think the single tube per unit solution is quite acceptable; for medium/heavy mortars it definately is not from a C&C standpoint. Let me be very clear here, beyond compatibility with v7.0 scenarios and campaigns my *primary* concern with any corrections/changes I make is to preserve correct interaction with the C&C system as much as is possible.

Given the complexity of this undertaking and the number of individual differences between OOBs, I'm going to start a series of posts for each separate OOB, one at a time beginning with ANZAC, and address each one individually. I plan to use the v6.1 OOB formations and number of tubes per unit/formation as the basis for all grouping and number of tubes issues and the v7.0 OOB unit data (along with any special concerns for new v7.0 formations) as the basis for all unit data.

I hope that many of you who are interested in this issue will assist me in developing workable solutions for each OOB. Hopefully for special questions and problems Paul will have a moment or two to spare to clarify things.

Thanks,
Brian

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Price ]</p>

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:22 pm

This is the first in, hopefully, a series of posts created for the express purpose of examining in detail the mortar units and formation requirements for each OOB and deriving possible solutions for any noted problems.
The v6.1 OOBs will be the primary source for formation requirements and number of tubes per formation data. The v7.0 OOBs will be the primary source for individual unit data along with any v7.0 specific formations.

The goal in these posts are to develop a specification for a OOB modifications to the v7.0 OOBs that represents mortars as accurately as possible given known TOEs especially in regards to rates of fire and accuracy in both direct and indirect roles without compromising C&C behavior.

With all that said, here's the v6.1 summary of the ANZAC mortar requirements:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs

Nation: ANZAC
1012 - Mech Inf Plt - requires 066 3" Mort Sec x1 (single tube)
1016 - Pioneer Plt - requires 128 2" Mortar Team x1 (single tube)
1033 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 066 3" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes)
1045 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 066 3" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes ea)
1079 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1093 Mortar (see Formation #1093 below)
1080 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1081 - Mech Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1082 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1083 - Commando Troop - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1084 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1093 - Mortar - requires 066 3" Mort Sec x1 (single tube)
1126 - NZ Support Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1127 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 128 2" Mortar Team x2 (two tubes)
1128 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 067 4.2" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes)
1129 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 067 4.2" Mort Sec x2 (two tubes ea)

For reference, the v6.1 ANZAC Mortar Data is:

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs

Nation: ANZAC
Unit#: 066
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 35 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#:067
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 83 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#:128
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 242 Ammo: HE 40

Summary of v7.0 ANZAC Mortar Requirements:
Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: ANZAC

1011 - Motor Inf Plt - requires 1x 066 3in Mort Sec
1012 - Mech Inf Plt - requires 1x 066 3in Mort Sec
1016 - Pioneer Plt - requires 1x 128 2in Mortar Team
1033 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 066 3in Mort Sec
1045 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 066 3in Mort Sec
1079 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1093 Mortar (see F#1093 below)
1080 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1082 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1083 - Commando Troop - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1084 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1093 - Mortar - requires 1x 045 3in Mortar
1126 - NZ Support Co - requires 1x 1033 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1033 above)
1127 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 128 2in Mortar Team
1128 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 067 4.2in Mort Sec
1129 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 2x 067 4.2in Mort Sec

Summary of v7.0 ANZAC Mortar Unit Data:
Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: ANZAC

Unit#: 045
Name: 3in Mort
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 37 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50

Unit#: 066
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50

Unit#: 067
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 83 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 86 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30

Unit#: 128
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 57 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 107 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 242 Ammo: HE 40

Summary of differences:

Possible Problem #1:
As you can plainly see from the above (*laugh* ok not so plainly) the first issue is twofold, the v7.0 1011 Motor Inf Plt now has a mortar attached at the platoon level. However, by default it is set to the 066 unit (3in Mort Sec) with two tubes, and the Motor Inf Co still has an attached 1033 Med Mortar Sec which has another 066 unit.

This implies that the v7.0 Motor Inf Co now has quite a few more tubes than the v6.1 company.

I think the 1011 Motor Inf Plt formation should have the attached mortar set by default to the 045 unit (granted this is no big deal since you can do it from the purchase screen) and, more importantly, the 1084 Motor Inf Co formation should have the attached 1033 Med Mortar Sec removed.

This would, I think, satisfy the intent of the v7.0 change here which, I believe, was to distribute the company mortars to the platoon level.

Possible Problem #2:
This one is admittedly trivial, but since I'm attempting to be thorough: The 1012 Mech Inf Platoon has an attached 066 unit (two tubes) by default - I think it might need to be a 045 unit (single tube) - once again though this is trivial since it can be changed by the player in the purchase screen.

Possible Problem #3:
The 1016 Pioneer Plt has an attached unit #128 2in mortar team. Under v6.1 this was a single tube, however under v7.0 this is a dual tube unit.

I think what needs to happen here is to restore unit #128 to a single tube version and modify formation #1127 Lt Mortar Sec to have two units, each of type 128. Granted this somewhat violates my 'minimize C&C point cost change' rule - but as has been pointed out before - most country's light mortars are used as often as not in a direct fire role. However, the ANZAC OOB does have plenty of space to add new units, so a new two tube light mortar unit could be added specificly for use with formation #1127.

Mortar Mod Changes:
Applying the 'Mortar Mod' changes should be simple here - only the 066 and 067 units would need the modification applied, as would any newly added two tube light mortar unit intended as a partial solution to Possible Problem #3 above.

Summary:
Unless someone finds and/or raises any further issues with the ANZAC Mortars, I think the above pretty much wraps it up.

Comments, critiques, questions all welcome. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Brian

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:28 pm

This is the second post in the examination of v7.0 mortars by OOB. First an overview of the v6.1 Belgium OOB with respect to mortars:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Belgium
1008 - Rifle Plt - requires 060 50mm Mort Sec x1
1022 - Mortar Sec - requires 026 3in Mort Sec x2
1041 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1042 - Infantry Co+ - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1043 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1046 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1047 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 027 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1048 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 027 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1068 - Mortar Plt - requires 2x 026 3in Mort Sec x2

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Belgium

Unit#:025
Name: 60mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 24 Avail: May '40 End: '40
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 243 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#:026
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 35 Avail: Jul '40 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#:027
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Jan '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#:060
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '30 End: '40
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 243 Ammo: HE 40

The v7.0 OOB holds the following information:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs

Nation: Belgium

1008 - Rifle Plt - requires 1x 060 50mm Mort Sec
1022 - Mortar Sec - requires 1x 026 3in Mort Sec
1041 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1042 - Infantry Co+ - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1046 - Motor Inf Co - requires 1x 1068 Mortar Plt (see F#1068 below)
1047 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 027 4.2in Mort Sec
1048 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 027 4.2in Mort Sec
1068 - Mortar Plt - requires 2x 026 3in Mort Sec

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs

Nation: Belgium

Unit#: 025
Name: 60mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 66 Avail: May '40 End: '40
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 2: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 3: 243 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 026
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jul '40 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50

Unit#: 027
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 88 Avail: Jan '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30

Unit#: 060
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 51 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 29 Avail: Jan '30 End: '40
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 243 Ammo: HE 40

Potential problems found:

Just one potential problem noted, there does not seem to be any reason to multiply the 025 unit's number of tubes - it can only be obtained as a replacement for the 060 unit which is a single tube unit.

Unless some additional TOE information has come to light in this respect, I believe the 025 unit should be restored to a single tube version.

Applying the 'Mortar Mod' changes:
Very straightforward here, only the 026 and 027 units need to be modified with the 'Mortar Mod' changes.

Summary:
Only a single possible problem of note, and it seems straightforward to repair if it truly is a problem.

As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome.

Thanks,
Brian

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:33 pm

The v6.1 reference summary for Bulgaria OOB mortars follows:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs

Nation: Bulgaria
1007 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 051 47mm Mortar Sec x2
1008 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr x2
1012 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr x2
1044 - Mot Co Recon - requires 1x 1012 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1012 above)
1170 - Cav Suppt Sqdrn - requires 1x 1008 Med Mortar Plt (see F#1008 above)

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Bulgaria

Unit#: 005
Name: 81mm Stokes Mtr
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 44 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 010
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Mar '41 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 019
Name: 81mm Mtr Team
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 43 Avail: Feb '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 051
Name: 47mm Mortar Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '30 End: '41
Weapon 1: 116 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

The v7.0 OOB versions are as follows:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Bulgaria

1007 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 051 47mm Mortar Sec
1008 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr
1012 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 005 81mm Stokes Mtr
1044 - Mot Co Recon - requires 1x 1012 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1012 above)
1170 - Cav Suppt Sqdn - requires 1x 1008 Med Mortar Plt (see F#1008 above)

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Bulgaria

Unit#: 005
Name: 81mm Stokes Mtr
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 010
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 54 Avail: Mar '41 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 019
Name: 81mm Mtr Team
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 40 Avail: Feb '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 051
Name: 47mm Mortar Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 58 Avail: Jan '30 End: '41
Weapon 1: 116 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 116 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Possible Problems noted:

Possible Problem #1: Crew sizes for both units #010 and #051 should probably be 8. It appears they weren't multipled in the conversion from single to double tube units.

Possible Problem #2: Unit #019 is a possible replacement for unit #005, however it is a single tube unit while 005 is a double tube unit. Unit #019 should probably be converted to a double tube unit.

Conversion notes for 'Mortar Mod':
This should be an easy conversion, both units 010 and 051 (after size correction) can be converted using the light mortar conversion process and both units 005 and 019 (after number of tubes and associated corrections) can be converted using the medium/heavy conversion process.

Summary:
The Bulgaria OOB is a simple one with respect to mortar units and formation requirements. Other than the two minor possible problems noted above, there doesn't seem to be any major issues here.

As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcome.

Thanks,
Brian

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:36 pm

This time it's Canada, and the background information from the v6.1 OOB follows:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Canada

1061 - Infantry Plt - requires 085 2in Mortar Team x1
1062 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1063 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1153 - Med Mortar - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec x1
1154 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec x2
1155 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 3in Mort Sec x2
1156 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 087 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1157 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 087 4.2in Mort Sec x2
1175 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1154 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1154 above)

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Country: Canada

Unit# 085
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '30 End: '36
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 154 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 086
Name: 3in Mortar Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 35 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 087
Name: 4.2in Mortar Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40

The v7.0 data summary follows:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Canada

1061 - Infantry Plt - requires 1x 085 2in Mortar Team
1062 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1063 - Infantry Co - requires 1x 1153 Med Mortar (see F#1153 below)
1153 - Med Mortar - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec
1154 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 3in Mort Sec
1155 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 3in Mort Sec
1156 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 087 4.2in Mort Sec
1157 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 087 4.2in Mort Sec
1175 - Airborne Co - requires 1x 1154 Med Mortar Sec (see F#1154 above)

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Canada

Unit#: 085
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 30 Avail: Jan '30 End: '36
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 154 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 086
Name: 3in Mort Sec
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 4 Radio: 80 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 74 Avail: Jan '32 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50

Unit#: 087
Name: 4.2in Mort Sec
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6
Speed: 1 Radio: 80 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 86 Avail: Oct '42 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30

Potential Problems:

The only potential problem I see here is that both versions of the Infantry Co (formations 1062 and 1063) picked up an extra medium mortar tube in the conversion. It should be noted however, that the Airborne Co still has the same number of tubes as in v6.1.

Assuming that no new TOE data has come to light making this an appropriate change, I believe that unit #086 should be restored to a single tube unit and that a new double tube 3in Mortar unit be created and made the default for the formations requiring two tubes.

Conversion notes for 'Mortar Mod':
If a new double tube unit is created to address the above noted potential problem, conversion should be easy using the medium/heavy mortar conversion techniques for the new unit and for unit #087.

Summary:
Operating under the theory that it's more compliant with scenarios and campaigns to leave units at their v6.1 configuration where a new, additional, unit configuration is called for - the simple addition of a dual tube 3in Mortar unit to the Canada OOB should address any mortar related problems there.

As always, comments, critiques, and questions are welcomed.

Thanks,
Brian

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:45 pm

This time, the Czechoslavakia OOB; first the v6.1 summary:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Czechoslavakia

1034 - Ind Rifle Plt - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team x1
1036 - Ind Mech Co - requires 1x 1150 Lt Mortar Sec (note it also has 3x F#1034)
1084 - Rifle Company - requires 1x 1167 Lt Mortar Platoon
1148 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 8cm Mort Sqd x2
1149 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 133 8cm Mort Sqd x2
1150 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team x2
1167 - Lt Mortar Plt - requires 2x 132 5cm Mort Sqd x2

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Country: Czechoslavakia

Unit# 024
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Aug '44 End: '45
Weapon 1: 199 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 242 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 132
Name: 5cm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 230 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 133
Name: 8cm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 2 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40

A summary of the v7.0 OOB versions of the above:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Czechoslavakia

1034 - Ind Rifle Plt - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team
1036 - Ind Mech Co - requires 1x 1150 Lt Mortar Sec (also has 3x F1034)
1084 - Rifle Company - requires 1x 1167 Lt Mortar Plt
1148 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 133 8cm Mort Sqd
1149 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 133 8cm Mort Sqd
1150 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 2in Mortar Team
1167 - Lt Mortar Plt - requires 2x 132 5cm Mort Sqd

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Czechoslavakia

Unit#: 024
Name: 2in Mortar Team
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 90 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 57 Avail: Aug '44 End: '45
Weapon 1: 199 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 199 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 242 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 132
Name: 5cm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 5 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 57 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 230 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 133
Name: 8cm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 2 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 57
Cost: 80 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40

Potential Problems:

#1: Formation 1034 (Ind Rifle Plt) recieved a boost of an extra light mortar tube. This means that formation 1036 (Ind Mech Co), which still has an attached Lt Mortar Section of two tubes, now has a total of 8 tubes instead of 5.

Unless this is intentional, I believe unit #024 should be restored to a single tube unit and a new double tube unit be added to the OOB for use by formations 1150 and 1167. Alternatively, #024 should be restored to a single tube unit and formations 1150 and 1167 should be modified to use the correct number of single tube units.

While the use of single tube units exclusively here would double the C&C cost when used in an indirect fire role, given the nature of these particular light mortar units, I'm not overly concerned with such a cost increase in this case.
Still, the space does exist in the OOB, and for consistencies sake, it might be worth creating a new double tube unit rather than modifying the formations.

#2: Related to #1, the unit #132 - 5cm Mort Sqd - should recieve the same treatment as unit #024 if modification/correction is deemed necessary.

Summary:
This OOB has a couple potential problems but they are all related to the doubling of a pair of light mortar units and can easily be corrected by either adding two new units to the OOB or modifying the appropriate formations. However it is worth noting that this multiple dependancy situation involving mortar sections/platoons and infantry platoons/companies is likely to reoccur again and again - where possible given OOB space limitations, a consistent treatment of these problems would seem preferable.

Once again, comments, critiques, and questions are welcomed.

Thanks,
Brian

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:51 pm

In this installment we will examine our first hellspawned OOB with respect to the mortar issues. The Nationalist China OOB not only has quite a few mortar units, but pay close attention to the v6.1 unit data and you'll soon discover evidence that someone has addressed part of the mortar issues before. No offense to anyone intended, but the earlier modifications have created a bit of a nightmare when it comes to finding and applying a unified, fair, non-OOB specific, solution to the overall problem of the unit multiplier not functioning.

If anyone knows why a few OOBs were singled out for special treatment many versions ago and what guidlines and goals the modifications were supposed to have I'd *really* like to know. Of course we'll probably never know why the solution wasn't carried over across the board to all OOBs.

With that off my chest, hang on to your hats and sanity because here comes the v6.1 data summary:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Nation: Nationalist China

1007 - Motor Rifle Co - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec
1024 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 089 45mm Mort Sec x2
1025 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd x2
1035 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd x2
1038 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd x2
1044 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd x2
1082 - X Force Plt - requires 1x 022 60mm Mort Sqd x1
1083 - X Force Coy - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WAW v6.1 OOBs
Country: Nationalist China

Unit# 022
Name: 60mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 52 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 236 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 023
Name: 81mm Mortar Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 43 Avail: Nov '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 227 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 024
Name: 4.2in Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 1 ROF: 6 (note: weight 106)
Speed: 1 Radio: 70 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 51 Avail: Feb '44 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 082
Name: Knee Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 20 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 216 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 216 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 12

Unit# 083
Name: NC Tp 27 GL Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 17 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 084
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '37 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 085
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 25 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 096 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 2: 096 Ammo: HE 20
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 12

Unit# 086
Name: Stokes Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 321 (text 321)
Cost: 44 Avail: Jan '30 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 087
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 5 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 320 (text 320)
Cost: 43 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 088
Name: 82mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 7 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 8177 (text 8177)
Cost: 44 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 089
Name: 45mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 3 Size: 0 ROF: 12
Speed: 8 Radio: 0 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 21 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 150 Ammo: HE 48
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

The summary of the v7.0 changes follows; note that Paul did attempt to bring some of the units into coherence:

Mortar Requirements by Country and Formation
Source: SP:WAW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Nationalist China

1007 - Motor Rifle Co - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec
1024 - Lt Mortar Sec - requires 1x 089 45mm Mortar Sec
1025 - Med Mortar Sec - requires 1x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd
1035 - Med Mortar Plt - requires 2x 086 Stokes Mort Sqd
1038 - Hvy Mortar Plt - requires 2x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd
1044 - Hvy Mortar Sec - requires 1x 024 4.2in Mort Sqd
1082 - X Force Plt - requires 1x 022 60mm Mort Sqd
1083 - X Force Coy - requires 1x 1025 Med Mortar Sec

Mortar Unit Data by Country
Source: SP:WaW v7.0 OOBs
Nation: Nationalist China

Unit#: 022
Name: 60mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 52 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 70 Avail: Jan '43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 2: 030 Ammo: HE 60
Weapon 3: 236 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 023
Name: 81mm Mortar Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 1 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 50 Icon: 67 lbm: 56
Cost: 80 Avail: Nov' 43 End: '49
Weapon 1: 227 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 227 Ammo: HE 40

Unit#: 024
Name: 4.2in Mort Sqd
Class: 82 - Heavy Mortar
Crew: 12 Size: 1 ROF: 6 (note weight 106)
Speed: 1 Radio: 70 Icon: 68 lbm: 57
Cost: 84 Avail: Feb '44 End: '49
Weapon 1: 072 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 072 Ammo: HE 30

Unit# 082
Name: Knee Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 47 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 216 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 2: 216 Ammo: HE 30
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 12

Unit# 083
Name: NC Tp 27 GL Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 50 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 25 Avail: Jan '38 End: '49
Weapon 1: 107 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 084
Name: 50mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 4 Size: 0 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 28 Avail: Jan '37 End: '49
Weapon 1: 040 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 085
Name: 50mm Mort Sqd
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 8 Size: 1 ROF: 9
Speed: 8 Radio: 10 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 50 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 096 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 096 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 4: 087 Ammo: HE 6

Unit# 086
Name: Stokes Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 8
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 321 (text 321)
Cost: 76 Avail: Jan '30 End: '49
Weapon 1: 037 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 037 Ammo: HE 50

Unit# 087
Name: 81mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 10 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 320 (text 320)
Cost: 76 Avail: Jan '35 End: '49
Weapon 1: 056 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 056 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 088
Name: 82mm Mort Sqd
Class: 05 - Mortar
Crew: 14 Size: 1 ROF: 7
Speed: 1 Radio: 10 Icon: 67 lbm: 8177 (text 8177)
Cost: 38 Avail: Jan '39 End: '49
Weapon 1: 057 Ammo: HE 40
Weapon 2: 057 Ammo: HE 40

Unit# 089
Name: 45mm Mort Sec
Class: 80 - Light Mortar
Crew: 6 Size: 0 ROF: 12
Speed: 8 Radio: 0 Icon: 66 lbm: 56
Cost: 52 Avail: Jan '36 End: '49
Weapon 1: 150 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 2: 150 Ammo: HE 50
Weapon 3: 157 Ammo: HE 40

Potential Problems:
Where to begin??? I'll start off by ignoring the v7.0 changes for the moment and first address the v6.1 oddities.

Oddity #1: It's easy to see where the 45mm and 60mm light mortar units were intended to be used, but what about all of the other ones? Take, for example, unit 082 - Knee Mort Sqd, (2 tubes) crew 8, cost 20?? - usable in place of the unit 089 - 45mm Mort Sec, (1 tube) crew 3, cost 21? Or perhaps it was intended for use in place of unit 022 in an multiplied x2 configuration - once again twice the manpower and firepower for the same cost.

Oddity #2: Unit 024 - the only 4.2in Mortar Squad in the entire set of OOBs as far as I can find that has a Weight requirement of 106. Even stranger, it doesn't use some exotic weapon with special requirements - it uses a standard US issue M2 heavy mortar - which the US Army has no problem toting around without towing....

I could likely go on quite awhile ranting about the v6.1 and earlier Nationalist China OOB(s) but I'd better save some for the Communist China and Japanese OOBs which also recieved some special and odd treatment sometime in the past.

And now to a very small list of potential problems from Paul's v7.0 modifications (all, or most of these have been previously listed in the More Mortar Musings thread):

#1: Unit 023 has a crew of 1 - this looks like a simple typo - it should be 10 I believe.

#2: Unit 088 has half the cost of unit 087 - it likely should cost 76.

In the collision between two different modification types with similar goals, there's at least one overall question that arises and needs to be addressed:

What should the size be of a unit created by combining two size 0 crew 4 units? The previous modifications to the OOBs changed the size to 1, Paul's modifications leave the size alone (at 0).

Summary:
Someone with more knowledge about the Nationalist Chinese TOE and WWII history needs to take a look at both the v6.1 and v7.0 OOBs and give their insight. I think what we're seeing here with the v6.1 OOBs is that someone in the past attempted to address the incorrect direct fire behavior of multiplied units - but since their 'solution' was only applied to sporadic units within one or two OOBs (it really looks like someone else entirely worked on the earlier Japanese OOB) it has made it difficult for a layman to figure out just what the data for some units should be - I'm still mystified as to why only some units were modified.

As always (and in this case with great hope and anticipation) comments, critiques, and questions are welcome.

Thanks,
Brian

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 12:35 am

WOW!!

Thank you Brian...This is outstanding stuff!

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sun Dec 16, 2001 5:48 am

OK as to the US Mortars .. first some references
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/60mm.htm
]http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/81mm.htm]
]http://www.rt66.con/~korteng/SmallArms/4pt2M2.htm]
as we can see from the above referneces the US 60mm Infantry Mortar was by doctrine just as likely to be assigned individually as grouped at company level .. and as we see the 60mm has a WP round for smoke.
Not all small infantry mortars are created equal please note the small charge and short range of the German 50mm as compared to the Russian and Belgium Mortars as described in this reference
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm
I hope this is the kind of info that will help you Brian to get the US mortars into reasonable shape

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]</p>