B-29 : The fairy princess of 1945

[ADavidB]

SO, put yourself in the shoes of a "Japanese Fanboy." Wouldn't it be nice to actually have a CHANCE to win? Things need to be adjusted in order for that to be possible.

Here are some "Victory Conditions" for a Japanese player in a WW II simulation:

- They reach May 1942 at or better than the historic achievements - a draw

- They reach January 1, 1943 at or better than the historical situation - a marginal victory

- They reach January 1, 1944 at or better than the historical situation - a clear victory

- They reach January 1, 1945 at or better than the historical situation - a decisive victory

- They reach August 14, 1945 at or better than the historical situation, and no atomic bombs have been dropped - a total victory

An Allied player likewise has to improve upon the historical situation or he loses on the same dates.

By "...at or better than the historical situation", I mean that the Japanese player has the same or better territorial situation and has the same or more forces, including ships, planes and troops, as the historical situation.

Thus, the "better" the Japanese player plays - taking more territory, losing fewer forces, etc. - the better the chance for a victory.

This alleviates the need to put ahistorical restrictions or enhancements on the forces of both sides.

It's too bad that the victory conditions for this game weren't designed in such a manner.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: Cpt.Buckmaster

ORIGINAL: dereck

Yeah because people - mostly Jap fanboys - griped and complained until the allied were nerfed even more.

Matrix, you HAD a good game but after listening to all these Jap fan boys all you've done is turned this game into a one-sided fantasy game.

Well, you might just be onto something there, smartypants ( [;)] )... but with good reason.

Any way you realistically slice it, the general outcome of the war was inevitable. Yamamoto knew this. The USN and the USAAF would become invincible (relatively speaking, of course) and it would only become a matter of ground combat to determine just how long the war would last (Atom bombs aside).

SO, put yourself in the shoes of a "Japanese Fanboy." Wouldn't it be nice to actually have a CHANCE to win? Things need to be adjusted in order for that to be possible. The whole 4-engined bomber thing is just one of the dozens (or hundreds if you ask some of the people around here! [:D] ) of things about this game that are completely historically inaccurate.

In real life, the Axis powers got completely pasted. Their cute little suckerpunch uncontested victories in 1939-1941 europe and the pacific were fun for them and all, but in the end their hemisphere-wide empires were systematically destroyed in a two or three year period.

SO, in order to make ANY WWII games fun for the "bad guys", there has to be a bunch of cheating... unless you design one that takes place in like Sept 1942 only.

[:)]

No Lieutenant, it ISN'T a good reason. You Jap fan-boys cry and complain all the time about HISTORICAL accuracy down to how many sheets of toilet paper the marines need to wipe their butts on Guadalcanal but whenever this historical accuracy would even come close to being of benefit to the allied player -- or even BEING historical -- you all circle your wagons, cry fould and shout down all the opposing views.

[Major SNAFU_M]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

SO, put yourself in the shoes of a "Japanese Fanboy." Wouldn't it be nice to actually have a CHANCE to win? Things need to be adjusted in order for that to be possible.

Here are some "Victory Conditions" for a Japanese player in a WW II simulation:

- They reach May 1942 at or better than the historic achievements - a draw

- They reach January 1, 1943 at or better than the historical situation - a marginal victory

- They reach January 1, 1944 at or better than the historical situation - a clear victory

- They reach January 1, 1945 at or better than the historical situation - a decisive victory

- They reach August 14, 1945 at or better than the historical situation, and no atomic bombs have been dropped - a total victory

An Allied player likewise has to improve upon the historical situation or he loses on the same dates.

By "...at or better than the historical situation", I mean that the Japanese player has the same or better territorial situation and has the same or more forces, including ships, planes and troops, as the historical situation.

Thus, the "better" the Japanese player plays - taking more territory, losing fewer forces, etc. - the better the chance for a victory.

This alleviates the need to put ahistorical restrictions or enhancements on the forces of both sides.

It's too bad that the victory conditions for this game weren't designed in such a manner.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

Amen and Amen to the above. This would be a far better solution (in any game) than artificially boosting/retarding the aspects of any unit, etc.

[Feinder]

(* sigh *)

WitP having a historical basis, one can only dream...



-F-

[Honda]

How many B29s were coming into PTO monthly?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Honda

How many B29s were coming into PTO monthly?

Please see my post in this thread.........

Also study this at your leisure.....

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB


Here are some "Victory Conditions" for a Japanese player in a WW II simulation:

- They reach May 1942 at or better than the historic achievements - a draw

- They reach January 1, 1943 at or better than the historical situation - a marginal victory

- They reach January 1, 1944 at or better than the historical situation - a clear victory

- They reach January 1, 1945 at or better than the historical situation - a decisive victory

- They reach August 14, 1945 at or better than the historical situation, and no atomic bombs have been dropped - a total victory

This can also be accomplished by agreeing to override the 01-01-1943 auto victory. If Japan is still up by 3:1 on 01-01-1944 it wins. Even as a Japanese Fanboy I think that the 4:1 AV is too easy to achieve.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: dereck

Yeah because people - mostly Jap fanboys - griped and complained until the allied were nerfed even more.

Matrix, you HAD a good game but after listening to all these Jap fan boys all you've done is turned this game into a one-sided fantasy game.

Sorry to go off topic Feinder, but can't say about your results. It is a really wierd for me....

Heh, dereck, noticed a new opportunity?[:)]

first, allied fanboys screamed all over the forum, give us bigger bombs for our B-17. It doesnt really matter that we have them too many in the theatre, it doesn't matter that they repair rate is same as it for fighters, it doesn't matter they are overpowered at all - WE WANT BIGGER bombs!

A bigger bombs granted to Allied fanboy club....

There are many more examples like this, and forutnatly devs did not listen AFC in all requests. Every time when I read stuff like "one sided fantasy game" I start think "oh, here is another player who doesn't know how to play game and desperatly need help".

I know that some things are not perfect but you can adopt to them, this is the only way for playing this game.

I think i succesfully adopt: I'm not screaming about PH under-historical results (in 99% percent) - instead of this i'm planning to attack Singapore in my future games. Yeah, a "fantasy" game. But only thanks to Allied fanboys who did not raise their woice against "unhistorical" results.... Can you realize now where is the problem?

...

[Feinder]

FWIW -

Folks may not have observed this, but Derek isn't playing PBEM. In all fairness, against the AI, he should be able to play out a fairly historical game (assuming that he is playing historically).

In PBEM (it's been a LONG time since I've played AI), everything goes out the door. But a "stock" player vs. the AI, he is entitled to a "good game" vs. the AI. He hasn't done anything crazy in order to break the AI. He's invaded Guam in 1944, and trying to conduct a strategic offensive within historical constraints. He -should- be able to achieve historical results.

Derek represents the "out the box player", that we all were, and frankly, what 80% of the player base actually is. Most folks never play PBEM, much less visit these boards. They play the AI and have a ball. But imagine the frustration that you're playing a reasonable game vs. the AI, and suddenly you B-29s are worthless (when you KNOW they were the beasts of WW2).

He is correct that most of the "ehancements" to WitP are in response to moaning in PBEM "balance". They really have very little to do with "improving the historical quality" of WitP, because frankly (as pointed out earlier), Japan doesn't stand a chance historically.

He's a player playing "out of the box", who doesn't want to bother with putting up with the crying of PBEM. He also represents MOST of the WitP clients, who never even visit these boards, and may never even upgrade their game. I've tossed out any notion that WitP has any semblence of history besides the names of the units. It's NOT historical. But it -IS- a fun challenge in PBEM. But what I'm saying is that, the stock AI player is 80% of the clients, and all of the "enhancements" to placate PBEM are ruining the game for the stock player.

-F-

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: dereck

Yeah because people - mostly Jap fanboys - griped and complained until the allied were nerfed even more.

Matrix, you HAD a good game but after listening to all these Jap fan boys all you've done is turned this game into a one-sided fantasy game.

Have you forgotten my comprehensive B-29 (and B-17 and B-25) bombing tests? [:(]

"Comprehensive Port bombing testing WitP v1.5 (98 bombers vs. warships and cargo ships)..."

tm.asp?m=856314&mpage=1

Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

This scenarios are "Leo TEST Scenario #116.zip" (for day) and "Leo TEST Scenario #117.zip" (for night) - you can find them here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp? ... m%3D856273

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 84


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
365 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
437 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sata, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Port hits 11
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 83


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
399 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 54


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

The devastation of ships in port is enormous... it's like shooting duck in a bathtub.. the only (possibly) good thing is that night time attack produced "only" 3 hits...

So this "REDUCTION" in B-29 effectiveness is bad and needs to be even better... oh my... [8|]



Leo "Apollo11"

[Mike Scholl]

The problem, APOLLO, is that while you are right about B-29's being overly effective AGAINST SHIPPING originally---the "fix" has rendered them unable to hit an entire CITY! They threw the baby out with the bathwater,,,. and the current results are just as assinine as the one's you are quoting from the other side.

[ADavidB]

Have you forgotten my comprehensive B-29 (and B-17 and B-25) bombing tests?

Les - where are the equivalent tests on Japanese cities? As far as I can tell, that is what Derek was commenting upon.

You have a valid point - a weapon in WitP that doesn't function as its historical counterpart functioned, may well function much differently when used differently. But then, I don't know how B-29s functioned as carpet bombers of ports full of ships, while I do know how they functioned as fire bombing night bombers of cities.

I guess the question that I have for you is - should B-29s in this game in 1945 be capable of doing similar damage to Japanese cities as they did in real life? Yes or no?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Well gentleman.... why don't you test?


I complained about some WitP aspects of how bombers, AA and search work and thus I did my tests (that took me some time to do it and illustrate what I was saying).

My points are, therefore, well documented (and judging from mike Wood last wrote the "search" problem was rectified after my extensive tests - thanks Mike! [&o][&o][&o]).


Why other people who also complain and claim bad results doesn't do similar tests to illustrate their point?

If you think that bomber attacks on cities (i.e. population) is not OK - create a test, run it several times (5-10) and let us know of results - the arbitrary "this is not good" post without test evidence means little...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Yamato hugger]

Dont let the name fool you. I am not a Jap fan-boy. I am not an allied fan-boy. I play both sides equally. I have 3 games going as allies (1 of which I took over in Jul 42 missing several allied carriers) and 3 as Japs.

Standing on a soap-box and shouting at the top of your lungs that something isnt right means nothing without posting the results that you are getting and comparing that to a like raid(s) in the light of historical hindsight (like Apollo did). Now Feinder's complaint is that he is shooting down B-29's with green pilots flying a great airplane. He doesnt say if the B-29's are hitting during the day or at night, so I suspect the raiders are hitting him during the day (thus the reason for my comment that B-29 raids occured at night) as I would find it hard to believe that many green Zekes are intercepting during the night.

Mike and Dave, I suggest you run some night raids, record and post the results (and not just from 1 raid, but from several raids) and then point to what you think isnt right (like Apollo did). Frankly, I have no idea what you are complaining about. I am running night raids with 16 B-17s in Feb 42 (which means about 4 fly on a given night) and Im hitting the city and starting fires.

[Big B]

It seems to me that most of the complaints raised in this thread suggest that the game has been tweaked into the fantasy world for "play Balance" because it is assumed that no one will want to play the Japanese if they are doomed to actually loose the war.

My question is - if you played WitP 'out of the box' - no patch updates - would all of these "enhancments" dissapear?

If so, is there a way to play original WitP - with the bug fixes alone? Or - once you start patching just to fix known bugs - you are stuck with all the "enhancements"?

B

I would like to add to anyone at Matrix who will listen - Most of us don't give a hang about "play balance". We buy a monster game like this for historical accuarcy - and let the chips fall where they may...

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Big B

I would like to add to anyone at Matrix who will listen - Most of us don't give a hang about "play balance". We buy a monster game like this for historical accuarcy - and let the chips fall where they may...

I doubt seriously that "most" people dont care about play balance or the game wouldnt have been changed (as you say) for play balance. [;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Big B

I would like to add to anyone at Matrix who will listen - Most of us don't give a hang about "play balance". We buy a monster game like this for historical accuarcy - and let the chips fall where they may...

I doubt seriously that "most" people dont care about play balance or the game wouldnt have been changed (as you say) for play balance. [;)]

I think Matrix claimed at one point that 80% of the purchases/players were Allied vs. AI. That would imply (not prove) that most people are interested in historical accuracy. As stated, these players aren't on the forum, and aren't playing PBEM, so aren't the ones demanding tweaks.

As one of the (former) players of AI only, whenever complaints about AI games were presented, they got short shrift (e.g. - the Bataan CD units don't work as advertised vs. AI springs to mind). Rightly or wrongly, Matrix has paid attention to the highly vocal minority that posts here. There are maybe a couple of hundred people who post regularly on the forum vs. how many thousand of people who don't.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Big B

I would like to add to anyone at Matrix who will listen - Most of us don't give a hang about "play balance". We buy a monster game like this for historical accuarcy - and let the chips fall where they may...

I doubt seriously that "most" people dont care about play balance or the game wouldnt have been changed (as you say) for play balance. [;)]

Yamato hugger,

I am not shooting poison darts at you or anyone - so please take no offense[:)], but -

If 'Play Balance' is the objective - then in all seriousness, just abandon the historical pretense and give both sides the exact same thing (with historical names and pictures like A6M5 and P-51, but identical stats) and make WitP a version of AH's Tactics II with two identical sides of equal units. It will be perfectly balanced, and no one can complain about historical accuracy because it would make no pretense of presenting itself as such - just a good balanced military game.

But it seems self evident to me that the main appeal of WitP is the self satisfying illusion that you are actually recreating history and matching yourself against the real world situation...which wasn't fair and balanced at all.

My two cents (plus an extra nickel)

B

[Yamato hugger]

"Play balance" doesnt mean you are playing Tactics II (not a bad game either btw).

"Play balance" means either side can win the game. I am not for 1 second saying that the P-40 should be the same as the Nate, nor that the Akagi should be able to duke it out 1 on 1 with the Essex. There are things you can do as the Japs that throw play balance right out the window as well. For example, load up 10 Jap divisions and land at Karachi and knock the Brits out of the war. When I say "play balance" I mean play balance.

With all due respect, this game isnt a historical representation of anything. Its a game, and any game should be winnable by either side.

As for people that play just against the AI, those are the people that should be screaming the loudest for "play balance". I mean seriously what challenge is this game vs the AI? I have seen post after post the stupid things the AI does in the game. You cant for 1 second tell me that these people are satisified with historical accuracy when the AI plays like it does.

I would hazard a guess that most of these "silent" 80% dont play the game after the first few attempts and quite a few likely have never even patched the game once.

[ADavidB]

It seems to me that most of the complaints raised in this thread suggest that the game has been tweaked into the fantasy world for "play Balance" because it is assumed that no one will want to play the Japanese if they are doomed to actually loose the war.

My question is - if you played WitP 'out of the box' - no patch updates - would all of these "enhancments" dissapear?

If so, is there a way to play original WitP - with the bug fixes alone? Or - once you start patching just to fix known bugs - you are stuck with all the "enhancements"?

The bug fixes and the enhancements are integrated into the patches. You can't choose which you take.

A lot of very important bugs have been fixed in the game. A number of irritating OOB errors have been corrected. And a number of player requested enhancements have been added. You wouldn't want to play the earlier, buggier versions of the game.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi