Leo's air ASW Search TEST WitP v1.795...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Good question. I was thinking just use one sub as a target and see how many planes of the search pattern spot it but this is actually impossible to do. My bad there. If we could determine how many of the planes spot the one sub it would have been immensely useful in illustrating the relative ease of spotting a sub.

That's impossible to answer I think...

BTW, here is what I got in WitP BETA v1.70 when i wanted to see relationship between submarines sighted and numbers of aircrfat used for ASW air search) - this is from my thread 1 month ago:




Leo "Apollo11"

[Ron Saueracker]

I know! What about using an airgroup comprised of only 1 aircraft on 100% search vs lets say 30 subs located 360 degrees around the base. Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I know! What about using an airgroup comprised of only 1 aircraft on 100% search vs lets say 30 subs located 360 degrees around the base. Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!

Aha!!!

Good idea - I will try it when I get home - thanks Ron!


Leo "Apollo11"

[rtrapasso]

Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!

Hey, this is WITP! I'm betting it spots most of them![X(][:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Surely this single a/c won't spot more than 1 sub!

Hey, this is WITP! I'm betting it spots most of them![X(][:D]

I'm curious as hell.[:)]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11


But what would that accomplish?

having so many subs saturating the waters immediately surrounding the base appear to be nerfing your figures. Also, a more realistic deployment is more easily comparible to a real life scenario.

[DFalcon]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


having so many subs saturating the waters immediately surrounding the base appear to be nerfing your figures. Also, a more realistic deployment is more easily comparible to a real life scenario.

I wondered this myself, does this set up create the equivalent of the uber CAP scenario where the large number of checks involved breaks the math. In my PBEM game although sub spotting is high it is not on the order of magnitude these test reveal. That could be selective observation or a sign the test is not indicative.

Wish I had time to test more, Leo has set up a great tool for this.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

But what would that accomplish?

having so many subs saturating the waters immediately surrounding the base appear to be nerfing your figures. Also, a more realistic deployment is more easily comparible to a real life scenario.

I know what are you getting at but it is not the case here at all... [;)]

The "pattern" of sighted submarines is not circle - the sighted submarines are sighted all over area (and in 99% of cases nearest ones are never discovered)!!!

Please just run the scenario yourself and see!


BTW, like I said in one of my previous posts I think I know how the search works in WitP now - it is very simple spiral starting from center and then clockwise increase the range (you can actually see it happening - the sighted submarines "picture" the spiral)!

So... number of submarines I have in my scenario is irrelevant because for each HEX the search aircraft is in the new check is made - if the check is passed then the submarine is sighted - it is of no relevance if there are 1 or 10 or 100 submarines there - every HEX is checked inside range in clockwise spiral...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Ron Saueracker]

Uh ohhh. So potentially one aircraft can spot everything if you are correct in your "spiral" assumption.[X(]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Uh ohhh. So potentially one aircraft can spot everything if you are correct in your "spiral" assumption.[X(]

In theory - yes!

I am at home now and will conduct the test in few minutes...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11


I know what are you getting at but it is not the case here at all... [;)]

The "pattern" of sighted submarines is not circle - the sighted submarines are sighted all over area (and in 99% of cases nearest ones are never discovered)!!!

circle, square or oval, I think you need to run your test using a more realistic number of subs.

BTW, like I said in one of my previous posts I think I know how the search works in WitP now - it is very simple spiral starting from center and then clockwise increase the range

I would be very careful when making such assumptions. many thought since UV that altitude settings impacted how well air asw found subs. They didn't. (until now)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Uh ohhh. So potentially one aircraft can spot everything if you are correct in your "spiral" assumption.[X(]

In theory - yes!

I am at home now and will conduct the test in few minutes...


Leo "Apollo11"

Can't wait. [8D]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Thanks to Ron for idea - here are the results for just one (1) search aircraft...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Ron Saueracker]

I would be very careful when making such assumptions. many thought since UV that altitude settings impacted how well air asw found subs. They didn't. (until now

Too bad everything is seemingly shrouded in mystery and silence. Much of the trial and error in modding efforts would be minimized if non critical design details (things which don't necessarily have to be kept hush hush) were known.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Thanks to Ron for idea - here are the results for just one (1) search aircraft...


Leo "Apollo11"

Wow, thats a pretty good result for one aircraft...what was it, a Lockheed Orion?[:)] Seriously, it appears you are correct in your assumptions. Were the subs sighted spotted in all directions or along a single axes?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

I know what are you getting at but it is not the case here at all... [;)]

The "pattern" of sighted submarines is not circle - the sighted submarines are sighted all over area (and in 99% of cases nearest ones are never discovered)!!!

circle, square or oval, I think you need to run your test using a more realistic number of subs.

What does "more realistic number of submarines" mean?

In my test I have 36 submarines - but they are on bigger area than big bunch of Japanese submarines that are in official Scenario #15 around Peal Harbour... [8D]

BTW, if something (like routine or formula) works with "odd" settings then it would (most probably) work with "normal" settings as well - the opposite is almost never the case... [:D]

BTW, like I said in one of my previous posts I think I know how the search works in WitP now - it is very simple spiral starting from center and then clockwise increase the range

I would be very careful when making such assumptions. many thought since UV that altitude settings impacted how well air asw found subs. They didn't. (until now)

I can only relate what I saw (i.e. what appeared in front of my eyes on monitor - if I am imagining then be it) - I am now thinking how to create small animation of it for you all to see...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Wow, thats a pretty good result for one aircraft...what was it, a Lockheed Orion?[:)] Seriously, it appears you are correct in your assumptions.

Yep... Orion it is... [:D]

Were the subs sighted spotted in all directions or along a single axes?

The "patterns" are 100% irregular and appear 100% random...


Please guys - just download the scenario (modify it for your needs - like just one squadron with just 1 aircraft) and run the test for yourself if you don't believe me)!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Ron Saueracker]

I believe you, man. Anyway, I'd need the latest build of WITP plus get my PC with WITP on it onto the web to get your test utility and latest WITP build and that is physically impossible at the moment. Using my bros old pig of a PC when I visit.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

The more I think about my "spiral" search theory (i.e. concentric circles with increased range) I think it is correct assumption...


Here is how I think it works:

#1
Every pilot in every squadron assigned for air search ("Naval Search" or "ASW") that passes all pre-flight checks (enough pilots, enough aircraft, leader check, percentage of aircraft assigned to mission, weather etc.) individually flies the "spiral" (i.e. concentric circles with increased range) up to the range user selected (halved in case of ASW).

#2
The "spiral" (i.e. concentric circles with increased range) covers every single HEX (in range) and then checks are made in every such HEX for discovery and countermeasures (enemy CAP, AA etc.).


BTW, if you think of it as programming "problem" the above explanation seems rather logical way to do it... [8D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[DFalcon]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

The more I think about my "spiral" search theory (i.e. concentric circles with increased range) I think it is correct assumption...


Here is how I think it works:

I had always assumed it was a lot more abtracted than this. Something like #planes x Range from base / number of ships = chance to spot for each air group. Overly simplified but you get the idea.

I really can not imagine that the engine is working through each plane one by one that quickly.