Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

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Berkut
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: spence

Agree for the most part with John III but think maybe durabilities of Japanese a/c may be a bit too high in general. Hard to imagine the G4M1 "Ronson" being anywhere close to the IL2m3 Sturmovik "Flying Tank" {Betty durability =36, Sturmovik =41}

THe problem is that we have no idea how those numbers are used, so it is hard to say how close they are to one another.

You are assuming that the 87% as durable, becasue of the numbers. But maybe the games damage equation is more like

Chance the kill = (Durability - (Gun damage x 2)) x 10 = percent chance a hit does not kill.

And lets say gun damage is 16 - then the 36 means that the Ronson has a 40% chance of surviving, and the tank has a 90% chance - a huge difference.

You cannot tell what the real difference between the effect of two variables might be if you do not know how the equation is structured to use them.
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demonterico
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by demonterico »

Berkut your correct. The Sturmovik has an armour factor of 2, the Betty 0, this is also factored int the equation.
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by arras »

Berkut >> sorry but I can't agree with you on most you wrote:

"A point made in FITS is that the Japanese military, and especially the IJN pilots had a LOT of influence on the design of the Zero."

-well that is true only up to some point. When designing A6N fighter there were prolongate and quit "hot" discusions about its desingn. In fact navy changed specifications at last once during proces which nearly lead to failure of whole project. One group of pilots demanded specifications of aircraft roughly of A5N qualities -short range, small calibre MG, wery manourable, speed unimportant. Another group argued for longer range, strong armament, fast, maneurability not important. They actualy argued that lack of agility can by ofset by pilot skill.
Those discusions lasted few days without final result, neighter part be able to win. Situation was finaly resolved by Horikoshi himself when his design met both sides requirements and even exceded reguirements in some fields.

Another fact you should notice is that still before war both navy and army started to design planes of "totaly diferent bread". Those were army Ki-44 and navy J2N, J2N by same designer as Zero by the way.

" Now, what make a fighter better than some other fighter?"

-way you use it of course. In general for ww2 fighters that meant: to use strong points of your plane while succesfuly negate those of your oponents.

"What if it is the case that Fighter A is MUCH better than fighter B, but only if both sides fight in a certain manner? Of course, I am referring to the "turning fight" that the Zero is so well known for."

No, Zero was "found" to be good not only at turns but for been good in any maneuers in general, including vertical ones. Especialy at lower speeds. It was also wery good climber and J. pilots ofthen used its climbing ability to escape from danger early in war. Climb is also important since it lets you gain altitude in combat and altitude meant initiative as a rule in those times.
Speaking about fying characteristics its weaknes was only in controls became hard at higher speeds and max. diving speed been lower relative to its oponents.

"The thing that I think amde the Zero so successful early on is that when it comes to doctrine, it was designed to fight well in what I would call a "natural" style of fighting."

But that was general stile of fighting in all armies in those times. Germans been firsth to develop something else only at the begining of Barbarosa. They started to use something what was later know as "energy fighting". There was AVG group in China but they were using simple hit and run tactic, not realy energy fighting.

Again, what realy made Zero so good early on is that it was good design + Japanese use it well + Alies unable to counter.
Japanese had battle experienced pilots, battle experienced leaders, much better morale, better weapons and most important superior tactic. Because of their experience from China and Chalkin Gol they used tactic which alied only had to learn. That included superior coordination between air units as well as air and land and air and naval units. Conception of gaining air control over whole operational area, bomber escorting, force concentration and so on.

Only way hove early alied planes could have chance to win against Zero was to start fight from higher altitude and use this advantage quickly to get kill.

" A Zero is a lot better than a P-40 in a turning fight, but a P-40 is equal or even better if it can avoid that kind of fight."

P-40 is better only in dive and is slightly faster in level flight -which it cant use in combat since it have worse acceleration by the way. And of course it is better protected -which alone is pure defensive atribute. In all other important aspect it is inferior to Zero: climb, wertical maneuvers, horizontal maneuvers, roll, acceleration, power loading, wing loading, range. You can discuse which have better armament, I think both are +- equal in this.

What Alies needed to win was better plane. Whithout it they could not use any doctrine for their good.

"You cannot force someone to engage in a turning fight if they do not want to."

Of course you can: firsth of all, any kind of fighter combat require some kind of "turn", been it in horizontal or vertical plane. Flying strait you gona hit nobody.
But lets take example when two aircraft engage and one is good energi fighter good on vertical and another is better in horizontal turns: If second succes to engage firsth in prolongate fight, then planes slowly start to loose speed/altitude and at some point firsth one have to abandon vertical since it lack energi for that.
Of course there is always option to end fight if you are better in diving than your oponent -but you dont gona win by leaving. In some cases it also mean defeat, for example when you are escorting or flying cover.

That is the way hove Hurricanes could succesfuly engage Bf-109 in battle of Britain by the way.

-just my few ideas and sorry if it look bit confrontating, it wasn't meant as such ;)
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

The 1st Generation Japanese fighters tend to get labled as one trick ponies. (i.e. they could turn tightly...thats it)

They could and did do alot more. Ki-43's remained the bane of the Hurricane in India and Burma throughout the war despite the fact that the Hurricane had attributes similar to other 1st Gen Allied fighters. (well protected/armed/good speed and fast diver)
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John 3rd
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by John 3rd »

Good Point. This is why I feel the Oscar should be shifted into the A3 slot so it gets the 'Zero' bonus for those first months.

I like Ron's idea of lessoning overall pilot experience to better reflect training in Dec 1941.
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

The bonus won't help the Oscar.

An exp drop would only temporarily reduce losses to some degree depending on plane type. Once veteran status is reached.....same old. Japanese exp levels begin dropping from day one anyway.
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Honda
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Honda »

Help the Oscar!!!
I can see however that bonus would do very little to help the Oscar. In your mod, Nik, you raised the mvr rating for both Oscars considerably. Haven't tried it myself but I'm sure it works. Not only that but you also did a speedjob on all the planes. Unfurtunatly, I don't see how those changes can become a reality in the vanilla scen. They bring historical balance (I hope) through ahistorical means (speed comes to mind since mvr more vague). What would you say if OscarsI got mvr37 and OscarII mvr 38? Under standard rules, that is.
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

The kill ratio might go down from 40:1 to 35:1

[:'(]
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Honda
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Honda »

That's what I was counting on! I only hope people who would call that an uber Oscar don't see this post. I see it coming...
"Oscar had such a poor armament that it should be simulated to carry no weapons at all to simulate the superior allied doctrine in avoiding a turning fight with the Oscars which wasn't even so maneuverable in the first place"
Any chance I get my OscarIII? Self-sealing tanks, 2x20mm, cca1250HP engine...
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

many people cant or wont see past the "poor armament" when comparing to Allied fighters. Technically, yes.....2 x .50's vs. 6 x 50's or 4 x Cannon (Hurr IIc) "is" a poor comparison. The problem is that this comparison translates into thinking that the Oscar was a toothless animal. It wasn't. Contrary, it was a very dangerous fighter and shot down a large number of enemy aircraft throughout it's career, up to and including multiple B-24 bombers. Another factor often not considered is that while 6 guns is better than 2.....the centerline placement of the guns combined with generous ammo loadouts would allow a good pilot to hose an enemy aircraft and/or seek vulnerable parts on the target. It only takes one well placed bullet to kill or cripple an aircraft. Shores contained an interesting commentary from a veteran Oscar driver on how they attempted to compensate for the Oscar's inferior firepower when facing heavily protected aircraft such as the Hurricane.

WitP, being a wargame, is ultimately a number crunching engine however and given the linear nature of it's a2a model, the Oscar can't help but get the short end in the same vein that the planes with large/powerful gun loadouts get 'ubered'

No plans at present to incorporate the Oscar III, but with the II model, i did give it rudimentary armor and self sealers and that combined with a better turn of speed and 2 x .50 equiv's will allow it preform better than the I varient. I am planning on adding the IIc Hurr model to supliment the IIb
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Przemcio231 »

Im playing WitP some time now and about the Oscar's i was totaly stuned when my Chinise I-16's shoot down 6 Oscars with no Loses[:D] i checked and my exp. was at about 50... not sure what my opponents exp was but since it happend early in the war i can asume that it was high... some one pointed out corectly that the Pilot skill's were as important as performence of the plane he flies... in 1939 when Germany Attacked Poland ouer primary fighter was P.11 slow , armed with 2 or 4 mg's depending on the version but most common was the 2 m.g version with speed equal to the German He-111 bombers so it was kind of slow and in most cases it had problems to intercept the Germans but this fighter was far more manuverable then BF-109 but Poland had good skilled Pilots and even ageainst such odds on their obsolete P.11 they were able to shoot down consiridable number of German Planes... my point is maybe to ad something Like Oscar bonus to reflect Jap superiority early in the War... the only exeption would be AVG whose pilots alrought without any experience had a good knowlage about jap tactics and where able to do a good job fighting the Japs in Burma[;)]
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

I believe you. [:D]

I recently finished a book on the BoB and it chronicled No. 303 Squadron (Polish) and their fight to get into the action not to mention their take on tactics:

"From the first, Krasnodebski and Kellet had been of one mind on tactics; those tight V-shaped formations were out from the start. Weaving and straggling, Polish style, like a small independant air force, they flew fully four yards apart, line abreast with each clutch of four planes fifteen yards apart, each man keeping an eye peeled for the safety of his neighbour."

When FC sent an intelligence officer to verify the spectacular successes being reported from 303 he was quoted to say after witnessing them in action vs LW bombers; "My God, they are doing it; it isn't just imagination."

On hearing this it was Krasnodebski's turn to be flabbergasted: Hadn't all of his pilots fought for forty-three non-stop days in Polland, so that most of his pilots had two years' training and 500 flying hours before even arriving in Britian?


I won't mention the er....motivation factor too.....These Poles wanted to fight!
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Przemcio231
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Przemcio231 »

Right they were doeing a great job as well as other nationality's like Czech and French...[:D] any way is there a way to increase the Operational losses for the Brits in Malaya and US in Philipines i read a book and it turned out that lots of loses were coused by Accidents especialy in Malaya[:)]
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

not really. "Operational losses" as a game catagory were deliberately lowered in order to preserve pilot lives. 'Some' AA and air to air losses can be interpreted as op losses if one adjusts their thinking to consider that not all of the loses may have occured over the target but either on the way back or written off on landing.

One thing i always desired was to have op losses tied directly into experience....this would have been a lovely counter to the "train the newbie via ground attack" method that can circumvent the standard training mission and rapidly bring pilots up to veteran status. Example: you have a squadron with exp 26 pilots and one squadron of exp 76 pilots....both set to Ground attack on an empty enemy base.

76 exp squadron drops bombs no sweat and suffers no op losses

26 exp squadron loses a few pilots lost on the way back due to navigation errors, losses several more to crackups on take off or landing + 1 who flew into the ground while bombing due to inexp (that actually happened more than once in RL)

squadron suffers 40% operation losses due to the incompleteness of their training and lack of fight hours.

In RL...a squadron with such low numbers should be kept on the ground in training with training flights....not actual combat missions.
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
"Operational losses" as a game catagory were deliberately lowered in order to preserve pilot lives.

Something that could be done about this is to allow for a chance for a pilot to survive an op loss depending on their experience. Then op losses could be restored to their historic levels.
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by arras »

Honda >> I don’t think Ki-43 need bonus; I even don’t think Zero need bonus. Instead I think allied air forces need penalty as whole since it was their unpreparenes, ignorance and false overconfidence which caused their shock from Japanese planes and their pilots. They thought they will face air force of few archaic biplanes and pilots which don’t know fly.


Nikademus >> good points, Ki-43 Hayabusa was dangerous opponent, certainly it was not as good as A6N but still dangerous. It was also one of the longest serving WW2 planes. After war it was still used by French it Vietnam, Chinese, Thai as well as some others. It was also predecessor of Ki-84 which was one of the best fighters of war (actually faster than P-51D).

You made also good point about its armament. While certainly not too powerful it wasn’t so terrible as one can think just from sheer quantitative comparison with allied fighters. As you already pointed out, weapons placed near centerline are more effective than those in wings for three reasons: fire strait forward unlike wing mounted, their mount is more stable than those in wings and last, have less impact on flight stability while firing. This all leads to higher accuracy and lesser spread of bullets. Also because of superior maneurability, Ki-43 pilot probably was able to stay longer on opponent’s tail giving him more time to fire at target.
Russians for example also mounted considerably less guns on their fighters than British/USA and placed them all close to centerline. Germans did the same on later models of Me109. When Russians received P-40s through lend lease they removed wing mounted guns leaving only two over engine.

In some cases Oscar pilots successfully engaged not only B-24s but even B-29s –something impossible in game.


Andrew Brown >> In my opinion also pilot survivability is too low in game in both fights and accidents. While you see downed pilots rarely rescued it seems that op loss mean always “kill“. Pilot looses versus plane looses are too high compared to real.
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Sardaukar »

Pilot losses vs. plane losses are too high, I agree. Even more so for US, since especially later in war US had quite good Search & Rescue operation going on. It included placing submarines near to Japanese coast to save downed pilots. And they used also Catalinas etc. for good effects to save downed pilots.
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Nikademus
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Nikademus »

IIRC, there is supposed to be a chance, but i've yet to see it. Pilot survival is definately factored into combat losses.....a good number of pilots will survive if shot down directly over their own base.

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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Sardaukar »

Losing lots of pilots due ops losses is problem if pilot pool bug remains. It'll also wither down Japanese pilot experience levels. But then, IJA/IJN never had proper SAR system in action like US had. USA will not run out of pilots in current scenarios (as long as the nasty bug is squashed).
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RE: Ruminating about the Zero bonus...

Post by Dereck »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Losing lots of pilots due ops losses is problem if pilot pool bug remains. It'll also wither down Japanese pilot experience levels. But then, IJA/IJN never had proper SAR system in action like US had. USA will not run out of pilots in current scenarios (as long as the nasty bug is squashed).

The pilot replacement bug hit me hard in my game and I'm still not up to comfortable levels of replacements - especially my Navy pilots - and I don't think I ever will be for the remainder of this current game.
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