DDs finding and destroying mines?

[Cpt Sherwood]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

They deliberately ignore air laid mines.

??? [&:]

WITP has air-laid mines, and many players use them. You have to get to a certain date, however.

As for the SPEED of MSWs when conducting operations - the speed of the unit to and from the hex is specified. it is kind of vague how fast units are actually moving when conducting minesweeping ops, however, there probably should be some sort of ops points assessed for minesweeping operations, i think. But lots of stuff doesn't get assessed OPS Points that should in the game - heck, some of the time i notice that ships loading troops aren't assessed OPS points.

Except that they porked the air-laid mines, CAP can not engage bombers laying mines, so gamey to use that feature.

You can put a DMS or two in a surface combat taskforce and it will still do a 6 hex run in, fire and hit everything, and then run back out 6 hexes( plus it will make a path through the mine field all at the same time ).

[rtrapasso]

You can put a DMS or two in a surface combat taskforce and it will still do a 6 hex run in, fire and hit everything, and then run back out 6 hexes( plus it will make a path through the mine field all at the same time ).

Yeah - but this is a generalized WITP problem, not limited to mine warfare. You can similarly have a surface combat task force do something similar, while engaging in 2 or 3 battles. In some cases, people have calculated the TFs are moving at something close to 60 mph...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

Some players complained about this so the "emergency minesweep" rule was intruduced, where DDs, PGs and PCs can sweep a mine or two - and *more importantly* - detect a minefield (minefield, once detected, is much less efficient in damaging ships).

I think it works fine - but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do [;)]
O.

So instead of giving the Japanese a more appropriate number of Mine Sweeping vessels---2by3 "invents" the 30 knot minesweeper? Wonderful! Overall, the game would probably have been better off had they left mines out of it. Until 1945 when the US started interdicting Japan with them they weren't terribly effective except as a nuisance and in harbor defense,,,, and those area could have been covered in some other means if necessary. I think your "strategy" is interesting, but their reaction to the problem was just a "bandaid". Maybe justifiable for UV...., but carrying it over into WITP (where real minesweeping assets are plentyfull) was sloppy.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Hemmm, lets not overreact Mike. Most important ability for DDs is NOT the destruction of pitiful mine or two (what's that in a 500-mine field??). It is the ability to *detect* the minefield(s). Detected minefields are much much less dangerous. Note that after "DD Minelover detects minefield" you usually get one of two messages: "DD Minelover hits mine" or "DD Minelover destroys two mines", which, since they detected the minefield, seems reasonable thing to do.

Besides, some DDs did carry paravanes, just their crews were not very proficient or trained in using them as specialised MSW crews were (but since what we have here is called "emergency minesweep" we might imagine they would use them in dire necessity).

"All ships can be minesweepers - once." [:D]

O.

[bradfordkay]

barnacle bob wrote:" I mine every thing I can! I love mines!"


I guess they give your relatives a place to hang out...






I consider the way WITP handles DD minesweeping a minor flaw in the game. Paravanes were there to use, so DDs should be able to perform the task in a very inefficient manner (highly costly, as well, but absolutely necessary on those occasions that tend to send captains to their cabins for their brown pants). DDs are also able to perform ASW operations at full speed as well, so the problem isn't limited to minesweeping and shore bombardment.

[mogami]

Hi, Paul Vebber (waiting for him to post here) worked for the USN minewarfare.

Its the old problem. Before DD,PC could detect mines we had the "Hey you don't need a minesweeper to detect mines, detecting them is half the work. Now we have the DD are clearing mines at 30 knts. I think not. I think the TF detects the mines and slows down and DD/PC do not clear a minefield like MSW.

I was on a USN FFG. We had no minesweeping equipment at all. In GW-I my ship (USS Halyburton FFG-40) detected and avoided (and since we were the "low end" of the the "high low mix" we led the TF (The CV USS America CV USS JFK TF) No ship in this TF ever hit a mine. The TF moved normally at 22 knts or better.
The only detection gear employed was the Mark-I eyeball. In daylight we could see submerged mines quite a long way off. If depends alot on seastate. At night you need to really pay attention.

[Wallymanowar]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Paul Vebber (waiting for him to post here) worked for the USN minewarfare.

Its the old problem. Before DD,PC could detect mines we had the "Hey you don't need a minesweeper to detect mines, detecting them is half the work. Now we have the DD are clearing mines at 30 knts. I think not. I think the TF detects the mines and slows down and DD/PC do not clear a minefield like MSW.

I was on a USN FFG. We had no minesweeping equipment at all. In GW-I my ship (USS Halyburton FFG-40) detected and avoided (and since we were the "low end" of the the "high low mix" we led the TF (The CV USS America CV USS JFK TF) No ship in this TF ever hit a mine. The TF moved normally at 22 knts or better.
The only detection gear employed was the Mark-I eyeball. In daylight we could see submerged mines quite a long way off. If depends alot on seastate. At night you need to really pay attention.

Actually Mog, any ship which has a Sonar is capable of finding Mines. It takes a highly trained sonarman to distinguish but it was possible in those days and is easier today because of the advances in Sonar (side-scan and Bottom scan). Wikipedia gives a good description of the various types of mines and the countermeasures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine

Mine sweeping
A sweep is either a contact sweep, a simple metal wire dragged through the water by one or two ships to cut the mooring wire of floating mines, or a distance sweep that tries to mimic a ship to get the mines to detonate. The sweeps are dragged by minesweepers, either military ships or converted trawlers. Each run covers between one and two hundred meters, and the ships have to move slowly in a straight line, which makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire. This was most famously exploited by the Turkish army in the Battle of Gallipoli in 1915, when mobile howitzer batteries prevented the British and French from clearing a way through the minefields.

If a contact sweep hits a mine, the wire of the sweep (which is made of high quality steel) rubs against the wire mooring the mine until it is cut. Sometimes "cutters", explosive devices to cut the mine's wire, are used to lessen the strain on the sweeping wire. Any mine cut free is recorded and either collected for research or simply shot with the deck cannon.

Minesweepers can protect themselves by using an oropesa or paravane instead of a second minesweeper. These are torpedo-shaped towed bodies, similar in shape to a Harvey Torpedo, that are streamed from the sweeping vessel thus keeping the sweep at a determined depth and position. Some large warships were routinely equipped with paravane sweeps near the bows in case they inadvertently sailed into minefields — the mine would be deflected towards the paravane by the wire instead of towards the ship by its wake. More recently, heavy-lift helicopters have been employed to drag minesweeping sleds, as in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

Mine hunting

Mine hunting is very different from sweeping, even if some minehunters can do both tasks. When mine hunting, the mines are located using sonar, then inspected and destroyed either by divers or ROVs (remote controlled unmanned mini submarines). It is slow, but also the most secure way to remove mines. Mine hunting started during the Second World War, but it was only after the war that it became a truly effective method.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Actually, he wrote two books on the topic for the U.S. Navy. He worked with me, in writing the mine rules. Ad hoc minesweeping operations can only be conducted at low speeds, by the way. The routine checks how many hexes the destroyer has traveled on the turn in question.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: Mogami
...Paul Vebber (waiting for him to post here) worked for the USN minewarfare. ..

[el cid again]

As for the SPEED of MSWs when conducting operations - the speed of the unit to and from the hex is specified. it is kind of vague how fast units are actually moving when conducting minesweeping ops, however, there probably should be some sort of ops points assessed for minesweeping operations, i think. But lots of stuff doesn't get assessed OPS Points that should in the game - heck, some of the time i notice that ships loading troops aren't assessed OPS points.

You do not understand. Minehunting or minesweeping operations take much more than an entire 12 hour turn. It takes days or weeks to get to the point your fast force can sail through with low risk. Allowing a heavy gun force with a single DMS attached to sail through a minefield with low risk is wholly unrealistic. I got one senior officer (real world) to say "I want some of those ships."

[el cid again]

WITP has air-laid mines, and many players use them. You have to get to a certain date, however.

Which makes what kind of sense? Why cannot inventories of mines that already existed be used? Limit mine supply to historical levels, not the ability to deliver them. And allow minelayers to load mines of the right type in any port that has them of the right nation.

[el cid again]

I consider the way WITP handles DD minesweeping a minor flaw in the game. Paravanes were there to use, so DDs should be able to perform the task in a very inefficient manner (highly costly, as well, but absolutely necessary on those occasions that tend to send captains to their cabins for their brown pants). DDs are also able to perform ASW operations at full speed as well, so the problem isn't limited to minesweeping and shore bombardment.

This is quite correct. The main penalty for sweeping mines should be time. If you do not spend 100% of your ops points in the hex, you are not minesweeping! And the risk is higher than the same thing by real minesweepers would be. And you cannot do ANY OTHER operations in that turn. That would be reasonable (and even optimistic - since it takes more than 12 hours to clear a field). And if you move fast, you should be unable to detect a submarine that is not surfaced. [Of course, ALL submarines are basically ALWAYS surfaced - but that is a different problem.]

[el cid again]

I was on a USN FFG. We had no minesweeping equipment at all. In GW-I my ship (USS Halyburton FFG-40) detected and avoided (and since we were the "low end" of the the "high low mix" we led the TF (The CV USS America CV USS JFK TF) No ship in this TF ever hit a mine. The TF moved normally at 22 knts or better.

The vast majority of USN ships damaged since the end of WWII have been damaged by mines. This includes ALL the USN ships damaged in the Gulf War. While the Mark One Eyeball is a good deal better than nothing, whole classes of mines are NEVER visible. Modern mines are laid in - or under - the seabed - and many of them come to you! [These include rising mines and homing torpedos planted as mines]. You were not in mined waters - and your lookouts were only looking for mines that had broken free from their moorings and were floating. We had sufficient problems with mines in the Gulf War we decided NOT to enter mined waters - even though that denied us the ability to flank over the beach.
We "solved" the naval mine problem by sending the Marines overland, around the other flank! This won't always be a feasible fix! And our decision not only to stop building minehunters, but to get rid of the entire mine force, and make minehunting the fourth mission of the Littoral Combat Ship, is not going to make it any better. Mine warfare is a poor cousin in the USN, and it won't have any advocates at all when we get rid of the last specialists. This is similar to the lighter than air program - which had a real set of technical advantages - but no one of flag rank to advocate them. Or submarines in IJN - which had a similar problem - staff officers for submarines were junior and expected only to implement orders to submarines - not advise on strategic and operational measures.
The only glimmer of hope is that this situation is constantly and widely described by JF Dunnigan, owner of FYEO, and a personal friend of the CNO. I know of no other reason to have even a 1 in 100 shot hope we might reform and give mine warfare its due.

[el cid again]

Actually, he wrote two books on the topic for the U.S. Navy. He worked with me, in writing the mine rules. Ad hoc minesweeping operations can only be conducted at low speeds, by the way. The routine checks how many hexes the destroyer has traveled on the turn in question.

Bye...

Michael Wood

If this was the intent, someone needs to check the code. It is not being implemented (branching around for some reason?). It is possible - even routine - to move at the full theoretical max speed distance with a single DMS and get the minesweeping effect.

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

WITP has air-laid mines, and many players use them. You have to get to a certain date, however.

Which makes what kind of sense? Why cannot inventories of mines that already existed be used? Limit mine supply to historical levels, not the ability to deliver them. And allow minelayers to load mines of the right type in any port that has them of the right nation.

This is the 2nd time that you have mentioned "inventories of mines". There are no inventories of mines. And a ML/DM can load mines at any port that meets the requirements. Are you aware of what the requirements are to do this?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The technology involved is paravanes. These are floats with wires attached strung from the bow - the mine cables catch the wires and that forces them up where riflemen can shoot them. Tricky, dangerous work, it was even done by my 16,000 ton APA (USS Francis Marion, APA-249, the last ever built).

Battleship USS Washington had paravanes. Don't recall if she ever used them.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

That thread reminded me about some funny situation in Poland. It was 2 or 3 years ago. Somewhere on river between Szczecin (big port,inland) and Swinoujscie (smaller port,near sea) was found a naval mine. Now it had to be destroyed. Navy refused because, as they said, it was floating inland and it was Army task. Then Army refused because it was naval mine and it was Navy task. Possibly it was not sweeped yet.

[el cid again]

It does not matter how many models existed - or what planes could lay them - you cannot lay air minefields in WITP - unless you have late war B-29s. So this is plain wrong.

[el cid again]

This is the 2nd time that you have mentioned "inventories of mines". There are no inventories of mines. And a ML/DM can load mines at any port that meets the requirements. Are you aware of what the requirements are to do this?

Turns out what appears to be "inventories of mines" are "inventories of defensive minefields in the hex." And - no - I am not aware of what the requirements are - since they never work. It is said the port must be level 9, which, if correct, is bunk. The home port of a Dutch ML or sub should be able to load her with mines - at least the original home port.
Because it could. And would. Same for other nations. Mines should be available at any major naval depot - unless you have used them all. Not to mention for your bombers.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It does not matter how many models existed - or what planes could lay them - you cannot lay air minefields in WITP - unless you have late war B-29s. So this is plain wrong.

Yes you can. B-24's for certain, maybe B-17's also. I haven't checked other types, but I believe it is either all heavies or all level bombers.

Select 'City' (or 'City Attack') for a mission. You will be presented with a target selection screen. In the lower left part of the screen is a 'Mine Port' button. Upon selecting it you are presented with a list of ports within range.

Someone above mentioned that this function might be date dependant. I do not know about that.

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This is the 2nd time that you have mentioned "inventories of mines". There are no inventories of mines. And a ML/DM can load mines at any port that meets the requirements. Are you aware of what the requirements are to do this?

Turns out what appears to be "inventories of mines" are "inventories of defensive minefields in the hex." And - no - I am not aware of what the requirements are - since they never work. It is said the port must be level 9, which, if correct, is bunk. The home port of a Dutch ML or sub should be able to load her with mines - at least the original home port.
Because it could. And would. Same for other nations. Mines should be available at any major naval depot - unless you have used them all. Not to mention for your bombers.

A level 9 or greater port is considered to be a major naval depot, which is relatively easy to envision. Increasing a level 8 port to 9 is not impossible and has been done. Additionally, when you have created your MLE ships, now any port of 3 or greater size with 20k supplies (as I recall the requirements) is a mine depot when they are there. There are no limits on the amount of mines that you can create. Bombers will load mines at bases if they have enough supplies also. Believe the date to be Jan. 43, but I could be mistaken; I will have to check next time.