Realistic or NOT! --- You decide.

[Nikademus]

no problem. easy enough to set up.

The AP's were not the cause...at least not directly. Their pop guns can't penetrate even Houston's thin armor at point blank (2000 yards) but enough hits can start some fires and make the ship easier to hit. The key is the ML Ikitsushima. While one on one not a match for a heavy cruiser, her 5.5inch guns can 'penetrate' the Houston's armor at close range (night fighting range) and cause signifigant damage. If Houston is distracted enough by the other AP's fire and gets in hits first, the cruiser can be beaten off and damaged. If Houston hits Ikitsushima first, its over for the Japanese TF in terms of hurting the enemy. Safest course of action of course is a day engagement...Houston is invulnerable and can pick off ships at will

here's an example:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/07/42


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 67,97

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
AP Gyoko Maru
AP Shikano Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Siraha Maru
AP Somedono Maru
AP Taibun Maru
AP Taigen Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AK Takaoka Maru
AK Taketoyo Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire
AP Takuei Maru
AP Takunan Maru
AP Taian Maru
AP Taimei Maru
AP Taiyo Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
AP Tatsujin Maru, Shell hits 24, on fire, heavy damage
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru
AK Hioki Maru, Shell hits 15, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 4

3 AP's sunk + the escorting ML no real damage to Houston


***

here's a night battle where Houston got in the first hits on the ML

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/08/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Tulagi at 68,96

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Gyoko Maru
AP Shikano Maru
AP Shinwa Maru, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
AP Siraha Maru
AP Somedono Maru
AP Taibun Maru
AP Taigen Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AK Takaoka Maru
AK Taketoyo Maru
AP Takuei Maru
AP Takunan Maru
AP Taian Maru
AP Taimei Maru
AP Taiyo Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru
AK Hioki Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston



****

another example

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/09/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Tulagi at 68,96

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
AP Gyoko Maru
AP Shikano Maru, Shell hits 27, and is sunk
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Siraha Maru
AP Somedono Maru
AP Taibun Maru
AP Taigen Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AK Takaoka Maru, Shell hits 21, and is sunk
AK Taketoyo Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Takuei Maru
AP Takunan Maru
AP Taian Maru
AP Taimei Maru
AP Taiyo Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Yamafuku Maru, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Tokiwasan Maru, Shell hits 1
AK Hioki Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 6


Hoston's CO, 'Riker' has a high aggression rating. As such the Houston tends to close the range more often than not and more combat rounds result. Again, if Houston first takes out the escort, she does fine....if the AP's distract her it gives the escort a chance to hurt her along with the other stinging hits

[Oliver Heindorf]

complete BS ( the result ). any transport who sees an enemy warship is eager to flee. the sailors on the transports arent warriors, the are simply sailors and they dont even know how to use a pistol .

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: rroberson

In one of my games I caught a Japanese CVE and single destroyer with a surface group...CA, CL and several destroyers...the CVE walked away with just 4 hits...I believe EVERY one of my ships suffered hits.

It happens,,,IN THE GAME! In Real Life...dream on....

Leyte Gulf and Task Force Taffy.

[fokkov]

This must be a command error .
Riker is teleported from enterprise after being sacked by captain picard.
and no one in starfleet wanted him anymore.
Ofcours he has no experience level at all with lowtech iron.

[Raverdave]

For those of you who think that this is complete BS....remember HMAS Sydney.

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

no problem. easy enough to set up.

The AP's were not the cause...at least not directly. Their pop guns can't penetrate even Houston's thin armor at point blank (2000 yards) but enough hits can start some fires and make the ship easier to hit. The key is the ML Ikitsushima. While one on one not a match for a heavy cruiser, her 5.5inch guns can 'penetrate' the Houston's armor at close range (night fighting range) and cause signifigant damage. If Houston is distracted enough by the other AP's fire and gets in hits first, the cruiser can be beaten off and damaged. If Houston hits Ikitsushima first, its over for the Japanese TF in terms of hurting the enemy. Safest course of action of course is a day engagement...Houston is invulnerable and can pick off ships at will

Hello Nik,

How does the armour work? I thought that the penetration of the weapon was compared to the armour and if it was greater it went through and if not it bounced off. I did not realize range played a part except that it effects whether it is a belt, tower, weapon or deck hit (all of which can have different amounts of armour).

That was I believed the explaination for the extremely irritating ability of Japanese CAs to be able to completely ignore hits from 6" cruisers and 8" Commonwealth cruisers (which did deliver less weighty 8" shells than the Japanese and US Cruisers but fall foul of WitP complete or zero protection).

Are you saying that the range effects penetration? Or have you just made certain parts of ships vulnerable by changing armour values? (which is what I thought you were doing).

While this combat seems off I don't like WitP all or nothing protection from hits and I am encouraged that occasionally you get unusual results like this. I have seen far too many many shells and bombs have no effect due to armour. Only a couple of weeks ago I had Repulse struck by 27 250KG bombs. A couple of AA guns were blown off and about 5 fire damage, not even worth going back to port for - and I was too busy fleeing KB [:D] But her superstructure should have been wrecked at least.

So I am more encouraged by this than disapointed. The Surface model certainly has some issues but making warships less invulnerable to smaller weapons seems to be a good thing in my view. But I am curious to know if it is your mod that allowed this or the game system adjusting the power of weapons at range?

[Feinder]

I gotta admit, I kinda think this is hysterical.

That scenario is a raiders wet dream. And then the convoy comes back with:

"Whoze yo Daddy!?"

"I didn't hear you?"

"Say it louder!

WHOZE YO DADDY!

"Yeah. I thot dat's what you said b***h!"

-F-

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Wolfpack

Me as allies vs Japanese AI NIK Mod 5.0

CA Houston intercepts lightly escorted convoy near Davao.
Commander is Riker. 50/52 I think. Experience is 67/60.

Now has 96 sys,60 FLT and 28 Fire.

Does the below seem possible? I didnt realize that the Japanese navy put such crack crews in their APs. [:'(]

Night Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 41,61

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima
AP Gyoko Maru
AP Shikano Maru
AP Shinkoku Maru
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Siraha Maru
AP Somedono Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Sumanoura Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AP Taiho Maru
AP Taizin Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tatsuta Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AP Chinko Maru, Shell hits 5, on fire
AK Taiyu Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 35, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Simple answer Paul! Stop playing the AI and send me some turns! [:D] I promise I won´t send my APs out to chase and sink your CAs! I´ll let Betties do the job! [:'(]

[BlackVoid]

[/quote]

Yeah, the Germans learned that after slaughtering convoys in the Atlantic for two years with only one ship raider TFs.[8D]

[/quote]

My biggest complaint about the surface combat model is the lack of mid-ocean intercepts - just like the German raiders. I know it never really happened in the pacific, but it is a VALID strategy. Lets say Japan takes Noumea. It would make sense to send CLs south to raid the convoys going to OZ and NZ, but in the game you cannot do it.

[hawker]

For those of you who think that this is complete BS....remember HMAS Sydney.

HMAS Sydney fights with,i think,Kormoran. Kormoran has six 5,9 inch guns along with 21 inch torpedo tubes. Kormoran also has surprise factor and elite gun crew.
Sydney has eight 6 inch guns.
Kormoran is worthy adversary for HMAS Sydney.

[hawker]

Me as allies vs Japanese AI NIK Mod 5.0

CA Houston intercepts lightly escorted convoy near Davao.
Commander is Riker. 50/52 I think. Experience is 67/60.

Now has 96 sys,60 FLT and 28 Fire.

Does the below seem possible? I didnt realize that the Japanese navy put such crack crews in their APs.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 41,61

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima
AP Gyoko Maru
AP Shikano Maru
AP Shinkoku Maru
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Siraha Maru
AP Somedono Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Sumanoura Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AP Taiho Maru
AP Taizin Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tatsuta Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AP Chinko Maru, Shell hits 5, on fire
AK Taiyu Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 35, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

It is impossible and serious BS.[:D]

[wild_Willie2]

But i would also like to know how Nik made it possible to penetrate the armour of "old" CA's at close range.

I would like to have this feature increased to incorparate 8" shells at close range V. "old" BB armour.. Until now, NOTHING less than another BB shell will penetrate even "old" BB's even at close range, I do believe that the KONGO class vessels where vurnerable to 8" shells from close range....

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2
I do believe that the KONGO class vessels where vurnerable to 8" shells from close range....

And they still are aren't they?

I know in UV I had 8" penetrating at 2,000 yards..........

[wild_Willie2]

know in UV I had 8" penetrating at 2,000 yards

I have never seen it in WITP.....

[hawker]

And they still are aren't they?

I know in UV I had 8" penetrating at 2,000 yards..........

Big guns are deadlier at long ranges becouse they hit horizontal armor.
Examples:
-Vice admiral Holland in battle of Denmark strait was eager to fight at close distance aginst Bismarck because of thin armor on Hood. Bismarck 15 inch gun breaks Hood armor on long distance with ease.
-Battle of Nordkapp,HMS Duke of York breaks Sharnhorst armor only on long distance.

Big guns are more deadlier at long range[;)]

[Nikademus]

How does the armour work? I thought that the penetration of the weapon was compared to the armour and if it was greater it went through and if not it bounced off. I did not realize range played a part except that it effects whether it is a belt, tower, weapon or deck hit

Range to target directly adjusts the penetration value of the device. The penetration rating in the editor represents the max pen value of the device at point blank range. It is adjusted downward (for vertical penetration) as range increases.

While this combat seems off I don't like WitP all or nothing protection from hits and I am encouraged that occasionally you get unusual results like this. I have seen far too many many shells and bombs have no effect due to armour

Normally i have no problem with this limitation because in the game engine only critical damage is represented. All warships have is the SYS rating which impacts everything from ability to maneuver, fire, and max propulsion. Were there a greater degree of seperation (particularily from propulsion) i'd have a different opinion. As such, non penetrating hits for light SYS and FIRE created SYS works well as ships tend to be too fragile in the game because any penetrating hit will affect SYS of which even small amounts of it will impact the ship and it's speed.

This scenario is the exception to that thought process because. I disliked that even tin-clad CA designs and old CL's (such as dragon) with armor as thin as splinter protection (2inch) were completely immune to small caliber fire (as found on old CL's, DD's and DE types) at close to point blank range and wanted to distinquish them from better, more substantially protected 2nd gen+ cruisers. This reduces the viability of the "single ship" raider tactic. As my examples show, it can still work but under more cautious circumstances and most importantly, its not a gueranteed tactic anymore.

[Feinder]

Just FYI, it is quite possible for a ship to be "plinked" to death in WitP. Non penetrating hits can cause sys damage (altho small), and fires (again small). But if you get enough of them, esp from a gun from a high rate of fire (or in the case of the convoy, a bunch of 3" guns with a fairly high rate of fire), it can really shred you. Not saying I agree with it, but that is the way it is.

-F-

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

How does the armour work? I thought that the penetration of the weapon was compared to the armour and if it was greater it went through and if not it bounced off. I did not realize range played a part except that it effects whether it is a belt, tower, weapon or deck hit

Range to target directly adjusts the penetration value of the device. The penetration rating in the editor represents the max pen value of the device at point blank range. It is adjusted downward (for vertical penetration) as range increases.

That is very interesting. I don't suppose you know roughly what the adjustment is? At 10000 are pen ratings 90%, 50%??

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

While this combat seems off I don't like WitP all or nothing protection from hits and I am encouraged that occasionally you get unusual results like this. I have seen far too many many shells and bombs have no effect due to armour

Normally i have no problem with this limitation because in the game engine only critical damage is represented. All warships have is the SYS rating which impacts everything from ability to maneuver, fire, and max propulsion. Were there a greater degree of seperation (particularily from propulsion) i'd have a different opinion. As such, non penetrating hits for light SYS and FIRE created SYS works well as ships tend to be too fragile in the game because any penetrating hit will affect SYS of which even small amounts of it will impact the ship and it's speed.

Hmm, well I can understand this argument but I think it is fairly thin [:)] The none penetrating hits do very little in my experience. My Repulse example is hardly an isolated case. I have had Akagi and the other 3 of KB who are protected from 500lbers take dozens of hits and not go above single figures in fires and sys. I have peppered Japanese CAs with 8" British shells and rarely see smoke and had my own CAs (Japanese and Allied) struck by multiple British 8" or 6" / 5.5" hits and had no damage what so ever when I looked the following day.

And quite frankly I cannot remember a time that none penetrating hits of any number have caused any noteable damage. Occasionally a turret or torpedo set goes and the ship needs port time. Otherwise nothing [:(]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
This scenario is the exception to that thought process because. I disliked that even tin-clad CA designs and old CL's (such as dragon) with armor as thin as splinter protection (2inch) were completely immune to small caliber fire (as found on old CL's, DD's and DE types) at close to point blank range and wanted to distinquish them from better, more substantially protected 2nd gen+ cruisers. This reduces the viability of the "single ship" raider tactic. As my examples show, it can still work but under more cautious circumstances and most importantly, its not a gueranteed tactic anymore.

Good luck with it. I like the sound of all the changes you have made so far although I have not actually tried your mod yet [:)]

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Just FYI, it is quite possible for a ship to be "plinked" to death in WitP. Non penetrating hits can cause sys damage (altho small), and fires (again small). But if you get enough of them, esp from a gun from a high rate of fire (or in the case of the convoy, a bunch of 3" guns with a fairly high rate of fire), it can really shred you. Not saying I agree with it, but that is the way it is.

-F-

Well Feinder you experience is certainly different from mine [:D] I suppose shredding may occur after hundreds of none penetrating hits but I certainly have not noticed much from mere dozens [:)]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I gotta admit, I kinda think this is hysterical.

That scenario is a raiders wet dream. And then the convoy comes back with:

"Whoze yo Daddy!?"

"I didn't hear you?"

"Say it louder!

WHOZE YO DADDY!

"Yeah. I thot dat's what you said b***h!"

-F-

LOL [:D]

I've seen some craziness before, not quite like this, but just as carzy. I think the results are dead on. If you raid enough convoys the chances of something strange happening goes up.

It's like the my BB Maryland sunk the Yamamoto with an opening shot at like 20,000 yards. BOOM, right into the magazine.

Personally I'm glad that things like this happen on RARE occasion.