I hate this!!!

[KG Erwin]

It is very simple. In my long campaigns, infantry DOES need smoke in order to retreat. They DON'T always have it. However, it many cases, SMOKING saves. I have no problem with it. Guys compain about a smoky battlefield, and I have to laugh. The fog of war is very real in this game, and in many cases you should be thankful for it.

An earlier post also defines the way you fight -- do you make your stand or slink away in the fog? My answer is this -- it depends on the tactical circumstances. In a game like this, there's a very fine line between tactical acumen and gaminess.

[Gloo]

ORIGINAL: azraelck

I think Infantry should not op fire at armor with small arms, period.

Disagree with that! On the eastern front the doctrine for russian troops was to fire at tanks with EVERYTHING that could be used (not quite sure about rocks but... [:'(] ).

These are (relatively) trained soldiers, not bunnyhoppers in CoD, and they should know that a 7.92mm rifle round isn't going to do squat vs a T34/85's armor.

Don't think that's correct. Many stories can be found about tank crews cowering before a deluge of small rounds hitting the armor of their vehicle... and that make sense. Don't forget that even a rifle bullet can penetrate through the hatch of a heavy tank and kill one (ore more?) member of the crew!

[azraelck]

ORIGINAL: Gloo
Disagree with that! On the eastern front the doctrine for russian troops was to fire at tanks with EVERYTHING that could be used (not quite sure about rocks but... [:'(] ).

As said. They were 'relatively' trained. [:D] I have fully expected an op fire message to pop up saying "SO rifle squad op fire with potatoes" [X(]

Don't think that's correct. Many stories can be found about tank crews cowering before a deluge of small rounds hitting the armor of their vehicle... and that make sense. Don't forget that even a rifle bullet can penetrate through the hatch of a heavy tank and kill one (ore more?) member of the crew!

I find it hard to believe that a rifleman can raise up out of a hole and even have a good angle to hit the hatch of a tank; unless the tank was facing downward on a slope. Not to mention that the soldier would be seriously exposed. In urban warfare I can see it. Not in the open fields. As to a tank crew cowering due to small arms rounds hitting their armor; I didn't say that a tank shouldn't be suppressed by the fire. Just that a trained soldier would try to hide and hit the thing with an AT weapon if one was avaliable; not give away his position by opening fire.

Not really applicable to SP:WaW, but I've seen half a team wiped out in CoD: UO because one moron started shooting with a BAR or MP44 at a tank, and got all of them blasted with the main gun for his trouble. As I'm an effective Infantry AT in UO; I know better. Though I have opened fire on them before to draw attention away from a more strategically important team mate; but that gets into CTF/Base Assault tactics; not applicable to the discussion.

My only RL experience with tanks and their crews comes from watching the military channel, and having a cousin who was a gunner in a M1 Abrams prior to becoming an officer.

[Gloo]

ORIGINAL: azraelck
As said. They were 'relatively' trained. [:D] I have fully expected an op fire message to pop up saying "SO rifle squad op fire with potatoes" [X(]

Hmm skillfully launched potatoes can prove deadly! Depends on the caliber used, though.

I find it hard to believe that a rifleman can raise up out of a hole and even have a good angle to hit the hatch of a tank (...)As to a tank crew cowering due to small arms rounds hitting their armor

I suppose tankers knew of this simple equation: "rifle shot" ==> "enemies ahead" ==> "Possible AT guns"... .

I didn't say that a tank shouldn't be suppressed by the fire. Just that a trained soldier would try to hide and hit the thing with an AT weapon if one was avaliable; not give away his position by opening fire.

I agree but that problem brings back the Opfire system as it is designed in the SP series. Anyway, I think it's correct to be able to suppress an armored vehicle by firing at it repeatedly with many light weapons. As it is treated in WaW, green crews will suffer more than regulars of this treatment and that seems appropriate to me. As long as you can't destroy a tank with rifles... [:)]

[PimpYourAFV]

I thought this was a trifle unfair... from the first mission of the Chosin campaign. I had all the trucks just about to park in the depot and was holding the military units in reserve until the end, but on turn 14 out of 24 the enemy morale broke and the game ended too early before about 2/3s of my trucks docked. That said, it is one of the best designed missions I have played and lots of fun.

[Warrior]

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai

Sounds like stuff that for sure needs a fix if possible. I notice when people play a game until they know every little technicality of the mechanics, they tend to get annoyed a lot and the fun factor is lost. Check out War in the Pacific forum and see the endless reams of complaint threads about nothing important. I reckon its better just to scrap it out and not worry about such minor quibbles. Its much more fun and doesn't induce stress that way. [:)]

Totally agree.

[Puukkoo]

ORIGINAL: Warrior

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai

Sounds like stuff that for sure needs a fix if possible. I notice when people play a game until they know every little technicality of the mechanics, they tend to get annoyed a lot and the fun factor is lost. Check out War in the Pacific forum and see the endless reams of complaint threads about nothing important. I reckon its better just to scrap it out and not worry about such minor quibbles. Its much more fun and doesn't induce stress that way. [:)]

Totally agree.

War is hell.

[soldier]

I think a good intelligent op fire system falls into the realms of Combat Leader as it would have to include the AI having to make some quite detailed analysis of the area and units available to determine a better outcome. Lets hope Matrix complete this by 2020.
Until then a slightly better system for SP would be good. Non combat effective units like recon, crews and snipers should have less likleyhood of opfire (unless defending themselves) if other proper combat units are around. So often your recon squad is given orders to fire at a tank in online games ! . I think if an enemy tank fires then AT guns or other tanks should have increased chances of being selected to fire back. Similarly if jeeps appear there should be much less chance that a king tiger would bother if smaller mates are around. Obviously these aspects cannot be concrete as armies need to be flexible.
Less small arms supressions against armour (sometimes its more than heavy guns ?) and unloading op fire would greatly help these routines.

[forgorin]

Just wait till you get to the third mission in that campain Smart Boy. It's huge and a real blast. A tribute to whom ever made it.

[azraelck]

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai

I thought this was a trifle unfair... from the first mission of the Chosin campaign. I had all the trucks just about to park in the depot and was holding the military units in reserve until the end, but on turn 14 out of 24 the enemy morale broke and the game ended too early before about 2/3s of my trucks docked. That said, it is one of the best designed missions I have played and lots of fun.

One thing I don't like is that you can truly beat down the enemy forces, have all the VHs (except for any invisible ones); yet, you still get a draw. I've won battles with only 12 men lost and a couple AFVs, and it was marginal victory. I had a draw when I completely wiped out an enemy force.