Kursk

[Marc von Martial]

This is a picture of what they actually do.

As it appears on the pictures they make a good job cleaning the smokestacks [:D]

[Viper6]

I completely agree with Neilster, it makes no sense at all; the Mk.48 ADCAP does not have any kind of "depleted uranium penetrator" such a device on a torpedo would hit a Soviet steel/titanium sub hull at 55-60 kts and simply bounce off - maybe scratch the paint if it were sharpish. As for targeting a specific spot there is no way, the torpedo's high-frequency active sonar guidance system does not actually even "see" the hull at all, sonar does not work like that, what it will see is actually the barrier between solid objects and non-solid objects where the sound cannot pass through anymore - i.e. where the water and hull of the sub stop and the air inside the sub starts. All the torpedo will see is a oval-shaped bubble of air that sound will not pass through as easily. Taking into account that the torpedo will not always be approaching the sub from beam-on there is no way to tell it which part of this "bubble" to target, it will usually hit in the middle. In the case of a surface ship it will pass under the "bubble" and detonate because of guidance restrictions keeping it from going to close to the surface and mistaking waves for targets, this results in the "spine breaking" type of explosion seen in Neilster's wonderful pictures.

As for the round hole in the pictures I have no idea what that is, but it is not a torpedo hit - even if some kind of hull-penetrating explosive did exist the result would not look like that, if something punched through the hull and detonated inside the sub why would only the second forward of the entrance be blown off? Destruction should be equal around the point of detonation.

The theory that she was sunk by her own experimental missile-torpedo I think is also rather unlikely, since all Russian super-cavitating torpedoes I am aware of are unguided and would not have the means to turn around and seek the launching ship. They are fired strait and rely on an accurate ballistic firing solution and their high speed.

Oh and the ADCAP is great at cleaning smokestacks ... if you can find the smokestack again [;)]

[Terminus]

Suppose the damn thing could have been sunk by a Shkval catastrophically misfiring in the tube, and then cooking off the rest.

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: Viper6
... the Mk.48 ADCAP does not have any kind of "depleted uranium penetrator" such a device on a torpedo would hit a Soviet steel/titanium sub hull at 55-60 kts and simply bounce off...

Not so! The torpedos carried by US subs on northern patrols are specially designed to penetrate the skin of the Kursk class. They do use depleted uranium tipped payloads to penetrate inside the enemy vessel and then release the single Watchmaker who disassembles the front part of the sub. There have been problems with the uranium creating chromosomal abnormalities in the Watchmakers but given what a Watchmaker it wouldn't be easy to detect abnormalities by visual inspection.

[Terminus]

Really? I'd heard that they used big industrial saws with diamond teeth to cut through the side and then deposit the Watchmaker...[:D]

[Black Mamba 1942]

The Scorpion and Skipjack were both sunk by the Soviet Navy.[;)]

Payback's a b----![:D]

[Viper6]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? I'd heard that they used big industrial saws with diamond teeth to cut through the side and then deposit the Watchmaker...[:D]

ROTF!!! [&o]

I hear that technology was developed by the Brits after reportedly loosing one of thier own ships to something similar in the South China Sea ... rumers and speculation though ... conspericy and such ...

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Brady
Coments?

Sorry, I don't buy it either. It just doesn't add up - a lot of folks come at these issues with the assumption that the US is somehow involved, but ignore Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation, backed up by facts, is that engineering/maintenance problems, combined incompetence and secrecy in the higher ranks of the Russian Navy are all that is needed for something like this to happen. The Soviets lost plenty of subs to causes other than collisions.

Regards,

- Erik

[anarchyintheuk]

I tried to keep an open mind until the "entry wound is exactly like that of a mk48" part. HTF would the producers of the "documentary" know? How many test firings of a mk48 against an oscarII hull did they make? The depleted uranium comment removed what was left of the credibility. Interesting, but I'll put it in the steaming pile category.

It's about time they added the 'Memphis fired a torpedo' to the conspiracy. It never seemed too plausible that a 7800t (approx?) sub rammed and sank a 20000t sub on it's own (one supposedly designed w/ a double hull to help absorb torp damage).

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
The depleted uranium comment removed what was left of the credibility. Interesting, but I'll put it in the steaming pile category.

Yeah, it's amazing how many conspiracy theories relating to the US have to somehow involve depleted uranium these days.

Regards,

- Erik

[Terminus]

I've got another one. The US government is secretly putting depleted uranium into breakfast cereals, so today's American children become stupid by eating them, and don't grow up to question what their government tells them.

[Black Mamba 1942]

That's it!

We're changing the name of our Danish Pasteries to Swedish Pasteries![:D]

[Error in 0]

Funny how some see conspiracies everywhere, while others never ever see them, no matter what. I'll bet some conspiracies has truth in them, but which ones? Thats why they are quite interesting. It makes life more interesting, at least

Kursk was sunk by aliens. There is proof.


JT

[Viper6]

Oh I am sure that there are conspiracies that are either partly or compleatly true, a number of years ago it was a "conspiracy" that the US was taping underwater Soviet comunication cables in the North Atlantic, that the CIA and US Army had a large part in the hunting down and killing of Paublo Escobar, or that the Soviets ever shot down a CIA-piloted U-2 over Soviet airspace ...

As for aliens sinking the Krusk I am well aware of the proof, the aliens were actualy from Neptune and used the Moon as the base for the particle-beam weapon that hit the Kursk ... or something.

[Neilster]

...so today's American children become stupid by eating them...

Too late!

Cheers, Neilster

[Brady]

I personaly feal, now that I cant find any referance for MK 48's havign a Depleated Uranium, anything...

That the most likely explanation is that the USS Toledo Hit the Kursk on acedent and that the Mepphis was just two close to the Kursk when the second Blast occured and took damage from the shock wave.

As to wheater or not the Toledo caused the damage that lead to the exploshion on the Kursk is speculative.

Clearly the Whole Torpedo things is full of holes, it looked good at first but it just doesent add up when it is looked at closly.

The Damage to both US Subs is aparent and thier behaviour during and after that atack suports this.

The documentary neaded to add the whole Torpedo angle, imo, to make a real case for the Drama angle, simple makinmg a move to show that their was a acedent at sea would not go over well.

[Viper6]

I'm not sure about that whole ramming thing ... it's really hard to say. Sure there have been a whole lot of acidental collitions between US subs and Russian/Soviet subs so that part is hardly unbelievable, though none of them that I am aware of resulted in explosions. I think the most likely explination, though I cannot claim to know all the facts of this case, is that the Toledo and Memphis were on hand to "observe" the Russian's torpedo experiment when something went very wrong and blew up the Kursk. The actions of both subs aferward I would guess is a combination of damage resuting from the explosion and the US not wanting to make it obvious we were watching what must have been a very top secret experiment ... and thus beg the question of how we knew about it.

Like Erik I am a fan of Occam's Razor: the simplest explination that fits the facts is usualy the right one. No need to go complicating the hell out of something when you don't even have anough proof for a simple explination.

[Brady]

Ramming is to hard a word, clearly hitting an Oscar in a 688 Class is a very undisariable thing, Hitting anyboat is not something one would want to do, espichaly underwater.

The link way above indicates that the Sound wave is indicative of a long scraping sound and not an exploshion. The Toledo was aparently suposed to observe from close range. This is again not new, their is plently of historical precedent to suport this, as their is the acedential hitting of a forgine sub, some fatal encounters for the subs in question.

We have recordes to indicate that the Toledo went home to a dry dock (Covered Dry Dock) and was in their for some time 7 months I belave, she made no other stops from what I understand on the way their.

The Memphis, acording to The Russians was spoted just after that exploshion on the sea bed not far from the Kursk, then moved off slowly, taking 7 days to make a 2 day trip to a Norweigine port, and she lost her emergancy bouy, which the Russians found in the watter in the area Near the Kursk.

The Experement was not top secerate, it was being conducted for teh benifit of the Chinese who on board one of the Russian Ships that were in the area as part of the excersise, we knew all about it and had voiced concerns to the Rusians regarding the potential sale of the technoligy to the Chinese.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Brady


I personaly feal, now that I cant find any referance for MK 48's havign a Depleated Uranium, anything...

That the most likely explanation is that the USS Toledo Hit the Kursk on acedent and that the Mepphis was just two close to the Kursk when the second Blast occured and took damage from the shock wave.

As to wheater or not the Toledo caused the damage that lead to the exploshion on the Kursk is speculative.

Clearly the Whole Torpedo things is full of holes, it looked good at first but it just doesent add up when it is looked at closly.

The Damage to both US Subs is aparent and thier behaviour during and after that atack suports this.

The documentary neaded to add the whole Torpedo angle, imo, to make a real case for the Drama angle, simple makinmg a move to show that their was a acedent at sea would not go over well.

You might invest in a spell checker. It would give your thoughts more credibility. Ore whir ewe triing four thet affact?

[Brady]

"It would give your thoughts more credibility"

Why. My spelling is legendary, I apricate the paticience of those who wade through it, but in the end it matters not as long as the message gets through, if you dismiss it simply because of the delevery, then you are unworthy of it in the end.