Killing my own soldiers

Capt Chris · Post by **Capt Chris** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 2:08 am

Yes there are probably a few exceptions but I still don't like it.

Use of the "sacrificial lamb" tactic really depends on how each individual sees the game. Is it a historical re-inactment, or is it just a game? Are they real men, or are they just 1's and 0's? I lean a little more toward historical myself.

Just my 2 cents.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 2:20 am

I guess then the Suicide AT squad of the Japanese are not historically correct then. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Galka · Post by **Galka** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 12:04 pm

Originally posted by Capt Chris:
. Move an expendable units, preferably small size into the hex of an entrench enemy next to several different enemy.

Who is going to tell the small units they are expendable? I know this is off topic but I hate it when people bait my troops/tanks with their "expendable" units. This is a game tactic, not one that would sit well with real troops.

That's one thing I like about CC. If you ask them to do something they'd never do, morale breaks and off they go in the wrong direction 8)

In our game I dislike dismounted tank crews being brought up for bait. I liked it when anyone who'd been shot out of a vehicle , either retreated, remounted, or were pinned for the balance of the game. It's not completely accurate but suicide tanker squads weren't either.

One chap recently drove his kubelwagen back and forth within two hexes of my infantry to draw fire so his infantry could move next to mine without taking any damage. Blatant, no doubt.

I fear this kind of gaming will always take place, until we have a real time simulation on a large enough scale to retain interest.

Wallymanowar · Post by **Wallymanowar** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 10:47 pm

Have you ever heard the expression 'A good Scout is a dead Scout'? Well the use of 'expendable' units in such a manner is good tactics. The use of the term 'expendable' is not really accurate. What you are talking about is using a low value unit to perform reconnaissance in preference to using a high value unit. While I might have agreed in the past that the tactics of using a unit such a Kubelwagen in the manner described was gaming, now with the ability to use selective opportunity fire it is not. Since the unit is trying to find out the positions of your units either by spotting them or by drawing their fire, it is doing precisely what a good scout should do. The essence of a good ambush is using your fire discipline to 'not' reveal your position until a target of high value presents itself.

On another note, I try to limit my own friendly fire casualties as much as possible by observing the following:
(a) not firing into hexes where my own units are mixed with enemy units, unless my unit is an armoured unit and his is an infantry unit and I am using infantry fire into the hex. In this way, my unit may take some suppression, but his will take casualties.
(b) calling in air strikes well behind enemy lines and in areas of enemy armour concentrations, not right at the point of contact - I have never had my friendly air strikes hit my troops.
(c) Not leaning too hard on an artillery barrage (ie. advancing into, or too close to, a friendly barrage) - if you need to bring down artillery close to your own lines use onboard mortars, they are much more likely to hit the targeted hex. Using these guidelines, I have managed to limit my own losses to 'friendly' fire - although I do agree that in such cases that they do occur they seem to be excessive.

Tomanbeg · Post by **Tomanbeg** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 11:46 pm

Originally posted by Capt Chris:
Yes there are probably a few exceptions but I still don't like it.

Use of the "sacrificial lamb" tactic really depends on how each individual sees the game. Is it a historical re-inactment, or is it just a game? Are they real men, or are they just 1's and 0's? I lean a little more toward historical myself.

Just my 2 cents.

Then you must be in favor of it. The 'holding' attack where one formation attacks to get the enemys attention while another formation flanks it is as old as warfare. Like Patton said, "Hold them by the nose and kick them in the A$$". Have you heard of the fake retreat? I could do it with SP2, but I havn't figured out how to do it in WaW. I think it was coded out.
T.

brianleeprice · Post by **brianleeprice** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 12:32 am

There is a difference, imo, between using scout vehicles to draw fire and using trucks to draw fire. Of course it depends on national doctrine and whether or not one is attempting to play in a more or less historical fashion. One might argue that in the case of scout vehicles, they are just doing their job. In the case of trucks, except for Soviet and perhaps some few others, such use would be, I think, rather ahistorical.

There is also a difference depending on whether or not opfire confirm is on or not. For pbem play, the best you can do is to restrict the firing range of your units and it is quite possible to run an ATG for example out of opfire using a cheap vehicle. It is quite a bit harder to do so with non scout vehicles if C&C is on though still not impossible.

Like so many of these types of issues there is a rather fine line between what is and isn't acceptable and many players have widely differing opinions. Take for example the following case:

I move a scout vehicle and it is fired upon by an enemy tank. I determine a good firing position for my nearby tanks but I don't want to commit them until I'm certain I'll be engaging only one target. So, I move a second scout unit to the desired firing position - it too is fired upon by the same tank. That's two opfire shots thus far.

I now move my first tank into firing position, causing another opfire. Now I move a second tank into a flanking position, drawing yet another opfire. At this point, most nation's tanks are pretty much out of opfire and as my two tanks alternate firing upon the target, chances aren't bad that I'll take it out, but assume that I don't.

Now I bring up a ht mounted platoon of infantry and/or some infantry AT. By this time I have a pretty darn good chance of moving to range 1 without losing a halftrack. Unload, assault, rinse and repeat until tank is dead, reload and retreat (if C&C is off or using 'near the flag').

Now - have I 'gamed' the system or employed allowable, somewhat historical, tactics? Or perhaps a bit of both?

Thanks,
Brian

Galka · Post by **Galka** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 9:18 am

Originally posted by Brian Price:
There is a difference, imo, between using scout vehicles to draw fire and using trucks to draw fire. Of course it depends on national doctrine and whether or not one is attempting to play in a more or less historical fashion. One might argue that in the case of scout vehicles, they are just doing their job. In the case of trucks, except for Soviet and perhaps some few others, such use would be, I think, rather ahistorical.

In my example the infantry troops were in a known location, as they were engaged with the troops which eventually snuggled up to them with their FTs; so the player wasn't doing any scouting. He was merely avoiding any return fire.

The idea that 'simple hans' can be coerced into driving an unarmed vehicle into a cross fire and make 3 passes(12 movements) before being stopped, is somewhat silly.

I've nothing against kublewagens being used as recon, it's most realistic and I'm not suggesting that the system be revised to have recon bug out when fire is taken. It just provides an insight into the mindset of my gaming opponent.

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:44 pm

Originally posted by TheZel:
Thats almost as bad as your air support ALWAYS going after your armor, instead of the enemy, even when your armor is on the other side of the map as where you ordered your air support to aim at..

.

interestingly i noticed that the air support for the US player sees to work quite good..... perhaps because of better FO´s ?? don´t know..

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 6:23 pm

Hello,

About CAS I have to say I never managed to have my planes straffing the infantry, even if this one is in an open area ... they persist to attack armor with MG for example although they could be deadly by firing on infantry units ...

A strange behaviour I also noticed, in the same order of idea than extreme friendly fire :
For example, you know ennemies are present in an hex but you can not see them, or alternatively you see them but your hit % is very low. If you fire at them with the "z" key, area fire instead of direct fire, you will kill more ennemies than if you had fired normaly at the spotted unit. Can someone explain that to me ?

David

Frank W. · Post by **Frank W.** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 6:40 pm

don´t target any inf. with the planes. ever target a truck or tank. but be shure there are some inf. men in the same or adjacent (spelling?) hexes. this tactic should work,even if truck/tank is not killing the inf. will get much casualities.

for the the other topic: yes,with the Z firing you can get good results with luck. so,no reason to explain it: just use it!!!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:31 pm

My experience has been that within the limitations of the game, CAS works about as well as the Arty rating of your FO - if you don't have an FO, I think it goes on the arty of your A0 - HQ.

Keep your troops and vehicles well away from the targeted impact area - three or four hex minimum is best. If at all possible, don't have your closest vehicle in the open, if in the open try to cover it with smoke.

Pay VERY close attention to the Entry/Exit hexes. If your aircraft don't directly overfly your forces, they are a lot less likely to fire upon them. I know that often enough such a flight path can't be planned, just saying try to do so when possible.

If my FO is less than 80 in his Arty rating, I most likely wouldn't target within six hexes of my forces. I still get friendly attacks, even when I've done everything possible to avoid them - sometimes it just happens as in "real" life.

Bing

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:09 am

Sorry, folks, but I think that people are trying to blame the game for either bad tactics or just plain getting beaten by the AI.

I *never* take losses from my own units when Op Fire is confirmed and I am careful.

Avoiding getting hit by my own air force is EASY.

V-man

challenge · Post by **challenge** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:01 am

Usually, when it happens to me, it's because I'm within three or four hexes of the CAS target hex. I expect, and I think most people do, hits from artillery if I'm that close to the friendly artillery target hex. Why should you expect differrent results if you're that close to a CAS target hex?

Lars Remmen · Post by **Lars Remmen** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:32 am

Originally posted by Velovich:
Sorry, folks, but I think that people are trying to blame the game for either bad tactics or just plain getting beaten by the AI.

I *never* take losses from my own units when Op Fire is confirmed and I am careful.

Avoiding getting hit by my own air force is EASY.

V-man

So let me see if I get this...

Units going into a meelee situation and the subsequent return fire from enemy units that severely damages the dug-in unit and does nothing to the advancing unit out of cover is bad tactics...

I suggest you try the setup that Fredde suggests. If your results does not show results quite opposite those that would be expected from simple reasoning you probably have a mutated mech.exe. If so, please send it to me!

In the mean time I'll continue to think that the fact that two man recon teams can be the bane of several 12 men squads in a single battle is a unducumented and unwanted feature in the game.

I do, however agree that avoiding friendly fire casualties from CAS is rather easy. But the pilots are notheless still daft...

Regards,

Lars

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:07 am

Hello,

Personnaly I didn't say that I was disappointed because my planes attack friendly units ... What's nerving me is when a plane which is out of bombs or rockets still targets tanks for example with .30 rounds ...... why did they "never" simply straff infantry units ? Is it because the program is done that way ? is it because it has been considered that the pilot is not able to spot the infantry etc. ... No mister white knight, sleep in peace, I am not blaming the game for my bad tactics, I am simply wondering and asking questions <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ...

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:43 am

Moaning and groaning is fine, David. That is what a forum is for. Being hit by your own fire is painful. The odds sooner or later are gonna get ya, with or without bad tactics.

We all make mistakes. FOrtunately, a click of the mouse and we forget them (Not saying that you did).

The poor commanders in the field never had that option.

But even with all this, reliving history via a wargame is great fun. I hope it is for all of you.

WB

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:53 am

Originally posted by Lars Remmen:

So let me see if I get this...

Units going into a meelee situation and the subsequent return fire from enemy units that severely damages the dug-in unit and does nothing to the advancing unit out of cover is bad tactics...

I suggest you try the setup that Fredde suggests. If your results does not show results quite opposite those that would be expected from simple reasoning you probably have a mutated mech.exe. If so, please send it to me!

In the mean time I'll continue to think that the fact that two man recon teams can be the bane of several 12 men squads in a single battle is a unducumented and unwanted feature in the game.

I do, however agree that avoiding friendly fire casualties from CAS is rather easy. But the pilots are notheless still daft...

Regards,

Lars

To avoid friendly fire from getting your own men in Melee, DON'T GO INTO MELEE. The AI won't, generally, so any melees are your doing.

Anyway, the AI has enver melee'd *me*.

V-man

V-man · Post by **V-man** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:56 am

Originally posted by Gappa:
Imagine that your infantry stands on the same hex as the enemy soldiers. You fire at the enemy and a 90% chance you will kill one or more of your soldiers but none of the enemy. This happens very often and makes me mad. It also happens when computer shoots at my troops within the same hex as his soldiers are. It is just too extreme.
I DO NOT LIKE IT. It would be best to fix it. It wasn´t present in the versions before. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

The solution is to avoid Melee with the enemy. I have found that isn't too hard, the AI won't put his *infantry* on top of yours. His tanks, maybe, but the AI won't melee.

At least, I've never had it happen to me.

V-man