Drop Tanks.

[el cid again]

As they used to shout in Viet Nam

Incoming!

Note the economics is not yet reworked entirely.

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I don't know if they come into the game at a later date as part of the hard coding or not. I have been reading articles about P-40's in the CBI using 147 Imp Gal drop tanks to extend their range, and about F4F's using drop tanks on Guadalcanal, seeing pictures of F6Fs and F4Us with any combination, including 5 150 gal tanks, and of course, the Mustang using twin drop tanks in addition to the (in)famous 84 gal fuselage tank. I have no earthly idea why they are not included in the loadouts of the aircraft. [Perhaps they could be keyed into the mission selection - bombs for ground attack, drop tanks for escort/LRCAP.] Even the Hurricane was plumbed for drop tanks by 1942, if what I have read is correct. I mean, if the old girl can lug 2 500LB bombs, why not a drop tank and 2 250LB bombs?

I have modded (is that a word?) the addition of drop tanks to virtually every single, and some twin, engined thing, and the range increases substantially, obviously, depending on the capacity of the AC and the size tank available.

BY THE WAY - why are we using liter tanks for the Brits/Aussies etc, when the data I have read uses Imperial Gallons?

I was told the drop tanks don't actually work. Hard to know since I cannot see the code! I note they do impact loads, but neither extended range nor normal range, as far as I can see. Nor should they - that is - YOU do the range value and enter it. Otherwise how would the system work? You must be entering some kind of range in the field. Anyway, I went back and looked - they were there in stock - just not used. I think it was a plan never implemented. As in they never wrote the code for the devices.

Nope. I made no changes to the endurance figures. Just either installed drop tanks, or swapped bombs on fighters for a equivalent load value drop tank - except for the F4F-3. A 75 gal drop tank on a F4F-4 added one full hex to the normal and extended range. Adding two 110 gal drop tanks to P-38, which they were easily capable of handling, increased range to 1200 miles (20 hex radius) which they also could easily handle. As far as the game mechanics go, that is the only think I played with, and got increase range figures. Not incredibly, except adding 2 110's to the P-51. Oy...

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I don't know if they come into the game at a later date as part of the hard coding or not. I have been reading articles about P-40's in the CBI using 147 Imp Gal drop tanks to extend their range, and about F4F's using drop tanks on Guadalcanal, seeing pictures of F6Fs and F4Us with any combination, including 5 150 gal tanks, and of course, the Mustang using twin drop tanks in addition to the (in)famous 84 gal fuselage tank. I have no earthly idea why they are not included in the loadouts of the aircraft. [Perhaps they could be keyed into the mission selection - bombs for ground attack, drop tanks for escort/LRCAP.] Even the Hurricane was plumbed for drop tanks by 1942, if what I have read is correct. I mean, if the old girl can lug 2 500LB bombs, why not a drop tank and 2 250LB bombs?

I have modded (is that a word?) the addition of drop tanks to virtually every single, and some twin, engined thing, and the range increases substantially, obviously, depending on the capacity of the AC and the size tank available.

BY THE WAY - why are we using liter tanks for the Brits/Aussies etc, when the data I have read uses Imperial Gallons?

I was told the drop tanks don't actually work. Hard to know since I cannot see the code! I note they do impact loads, but neither extended range nor normal range, as far as I can see. Nor should they - that is - YOU do the range value and enter it. Otherwise how would the system work? You must be entering some kind of range in the field. Anyway, I went back and looked - they were there in stock - just not used. I think it was a plan never implemented. As in they never wrote the code for the devices.

Nope. I made no changes to the endurance figures. Just either installed drop tanks, or swapped bombs on fighters for a equivalent load value drop tank - except for the F4F-3. A 75 gal drop tank on a F4F-4 added one full hex to the normal and extended range. Adding two 110 gal drop tanks to P-38, which they were easily capable of handling, increased range to 1200 miles (20 hex radius) which they also could easily handle. As far as the game mechanics go, that is the only think I played with, and got increase range figures. Not incredibly, except adding 2 110's to the P-51. Oy...

Well, looks like you have good figures there, RevRick..From the sites I linked above, Gen Kenney had his new P 47's married to a custom-made 200 gal drop tank,specifically made to fit the P47's..If you have time, can you see what that does for the P 47 range?..According to the vets who actually flew that rig, it *doubled* the P 47's extended range...[:)]

[JeffroK]

So to clarify RevRick's post,

If you add Drop Tanks, range is automatically increased!!

[el cid again]

Well, looks like you have good figures there, RevRick..From the sites I linked above, Gen Kenney had his new P 47's married to a custom-made 200 gal drop tank,specifically made to fit the P47's..If you have time, can you see what that does for the P 47 range?..According to the vets who actually flew that rig, it *doubled* the P 47's extended range...

First, your language implies ONE drop tank per plane - is that what you mean?

Second, this is backwards. You need to TELL US the range with the tanks, not ask. We have no P-47s to test!

[el cid again]

So to clarify RevRick's post,

If you add Drop Tanks, range is automatically increased!!

If so, it is an error.

WITP believes the lies (or truth) we feed it.

ALL scenarios until now flew the Zero WITH a drop tank - but WITHOUT fitting it! And most other planes as well. The ranges ARE drop tank ranges - but you don't have to carry them. Or buy them. I said - I will add them. It DOES NOT CHANGE THE RANGE A WHIT - unless we had the range wrong to begin with. ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range. Now if you believe a plane (say P-47) is given the wrong range, that is a different subject. We list ONLY the ferry range of an aircraft in the database (technically it is called transfer range in WITP). The game calculates normal range as 30% of that, and extended range as 40% - even if that is not the real case. We have no control over any value but transfer range. The drop tank feature is mainly chrome - it just takes up load - and in order to add it - I had to add load capacity to many planes. But it does not have some wierd code saying "if using drop tanks, increase transfer range" - the data is whatever it is.

[JeffroK]

I understand what you are saying but we have, apparantly, a different claim.

WITP just may have this ability, if its proven great, if not, things have to be adjusted.

[Iron Duke]

Hi,

Did a quick test with adding drop tanks

stock scen.3 Coral sea saved to slot 198

added drop tanks as follows

a/c 1 Kittyhawk I added 1 x 50 gal drop tank - did not change max load value

ranges before -
max=15/900 [hex/miles]
extended= 5/300
normal = 3/225
endurance=200

ranges after -
max=19/1140
extended=6/380
normal = 3/225
endurance=250
note: endurance increased by 50 [ same as size of drop tank]

a/c 2. F4F-3 Wildcat added 110 gal drop tank - changed max load value to 750 [drop tank device load value]

ranges before-
max=14/840
extended=4/280
normal=3/210
endurance=330

ranges after -
max=18/1080
extended=6/360
normal=4/270
endurance=440
note: endurance increased by 110 [again by size of drop tank]

They appear to work? wether the new ranges are correct needs varifying .

cheers

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

So to clarify RevRick's post,

If you add Drop Tanks, range is automatically increased!!

If so, it is an error.

WITP believes the lies (or truth) we feed it.

ALL scenarios until now flew the Zero WITH a drop tank - but WITHOUT fitting it! And most other planes as well. The ranges ARE drop tank ranges - but you don't have to carry them. Or buy them. I said - I will add them. It DOES NOT CHANGE THE RANGE A WHIT - unless we had the range wrong to begin with. ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range. Now if you believe a plane (say P-47) is given the wrong range, that is a different subject. We list ONLY the ferry range of an aircraft in the database (technically it is called transfer range in WITP). The game calculates normal range as 30% of that, and extended range as 40% - even if that is not the real case. We have no control over any value but transfer range. The drop tank feature is mainly chrome - it just takes up load - and in order to add it - I had to add load capacity to many planes. But it does not have some wierd code saying "if using drop tanks, increase transfer range" - the data is whatever it is.

Sid, I FINALLY(!) understand what you are saying!..Since WITP is already "believing" the extended ranges to "assume" tanks aboard, it IS apparent the ranges were incorrect for the uniform "Pacific P47's" completely!!(While the ext. range may have been o.k. for the ETO, the historical fact of the "Gen Kenney" modified planes was never taken into acct.
While the ETO planes were originally fitted with 2x165 gal. P 38 tanks, (as seen in the pic on the first thread I linked):

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history ... -47/6.html

the wording of the Gen Kenney Australian planes seems to indicate a single 200 gal tank, (just like the one seen on the 60's era P47 models!!!!)
With no access to the codes, one must understand the original designers felt no need to differentiate accurately for the compensation of FB's carrying tanks OR bombs, and could afford to simulate this very abstractly, (albeit effectively.)
Unfortunately, most of the fans of the game are true grognards, (by design or accident) who seek historic measure to some extent greater than originally given.
IMHO, as great as Gen Kenney's apparent need for a long-range *single-engined escort fighter* was, the provision was never given to use the plane he actually used for this purpose, (the P47.)

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range.

Maybe that's a good thing? I seem to recall Lemurs once stating that he'd cut the range of a number of fighterbombers in CHS because he felt that it would otherwise overstate their ability to lug heavy bombloads out to max range.

[el cid again]

ALL it does is reduce bomb load - usually to zero - at extended range.



Maybe that's a good thing? I seem to recall Lemurs once stating that he'd cut the range of a number of fighterbombers in CHS because he felt that it would otherwise overstate their ability to lug heavy bombloads out to max range.

I agree - apparently with both you and Lemurs. It is one reason I added drop tanks. I think it also increases the cost of missions (you pay for ordnance carried - the game thinks of it like bombs). This matters even for recon planes with drop tanks (see the Mosquito with huge ones).

[el cid again]

Sid, I FINALLY(!) understand what you are saying!..Since WITP is already "believing" the extended ranges to "assume" tanks aboard, it IS apparent the ranges were incorrect for the uniform "Pacific P47's" completely!!(While the ext. range may have been o.k. for the ETO, the historical fact of the "Gen Kenney" modified planes was never taken into acct.
While the ETO planes were originally fitted with 2x165 gal. P 38 tanks, (as seen in the pic on the first thread I linked):

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history ... -47/6.html

And for my part I finally understand what you are saying. OK - 1 x 200 gal drop tank. For all models. But what is the range if it flies with it - all fuel - nothing else - transfer range.

the wording of the Gen Kenney Australian planes seems to indicate a single 200 gal tank, (just like the one seen on the 60's era P47 models!!!!)
With no access to the codes, one must understand the original designers felt no need to differentiate accurately for the compensation of FB's carrying tanks OR bombs, and could afford to simulate this very abstractly, (albeit effectively.)
Unfortunately, most of the fans of the game are true grognards, (by design or accident) who seek historic measure to some extent greater than originally given.
IMHO, as great as Gen Kenney's apparent need for a long-range *single-engined escort fighter* was, the provision was never given to use the plane he actually used for this purpose, (the P47.)

[Iron Duke]

Hi,

'Yes and no. Drop tanks have existed since stock - and not been used. I have implemented them for RHS - but it is mostly chrome. Drop tanks do not really define range - a single data field does that. Code interprets variations of that for transfer range, normal range and extended range.'

couple of questions el cid , having added stock drop tanks onto stock aircraft and seen an increase in max range,extended range,normal range and endurance [the increased endurance is only shown ingame on the aircraft data screen] is the statement above true? If you are adding them are you or have you adjusted the endurance values of a/c in your mod? Was it you that said the endurance values for a/c already accounted for drop tank ranges[if it wasn't apoligises] if they are then adding drop tanks will give inflated ranges to all a/c with drop tanks.

becoming more confussed by the minute!

cheers
el cid does do you know what endurance represen max,normal or extended range or some other value[besides minutes of flight before no fuel as stated in manual]

[RevRick]

Okay, here is the effect of adding drop tanks.

I loaded the original Scen. 12 into the Scenario Editor, and selected a slot. Then, I loaded Scen. 12 into the Database Editor, and made the following modifications only.

Plane Nor./Ext. Load out Ld val 1-75 rng.
F4F 3/4 2-100# 500 4/5 deleted 2 100#
F4U 3/5 2-250# 1000 4/6 no deletions
F6F 3/4 2-500# 2000 4/6 no deletions
P-47C 4/6 2-500# 1500 6/8 no deletions
P-38G 7/9 2-500# 2000 9/12 no deletions
F-5A 10/14 2-150Gal
P-40E 3/5 2-100# 200* 5/7 deleted 2-100#
P-39D 3/4 1-250# 500 4/5 deleted 1-250#
Hurri 1/2 2-500# 1000 3/4 -2-500# +2-250#
Spit 5 1/2 2-250-??? 500 3/4 deleted 2-250#

P-47C - deleted all bombs. Added 1-200 Gallon drop tank
Normal range 8 Ext. Range 11.

P-38G Deleted bombs. Added tw0 - 150 Gal tanks
Normal Range 11 Ext. Range 14.

Important note. This includes no alteration in the paramters of the aircraft except the following - changed load value of P-40E from 200 to 500. This was from data indicating P-40E flew in CBI with 147 Imperial Gallon drop tanks added. If that is the case, it certainly has a greated load capacity than 200 pounds, probably more like 750 lb.

Also the loadout display in the game will not indicate any changes if one simply modifies the database. To change the load shown on the display, you must go to each airgroup which is currently using the aircraft in question, and click on the aircraft in the proper slot, and then that will change the load out in the air group database.

Now, if the game value ranges are already taking into effect the addition of drop tanks, I would like to see some authoritative data on that, and an explanation of adding the normal range loadout of some fighters to include bombs - specially the Wildcat - which would make about as much sense as another teat on a boar. That does not even include the loadout of 2 250# bombs on a Spitfire. It may have been done, but as a standard load on the most maneuverable allied fighter in the early game - poppycock! Give me the gas, thank you! I've got other types to carry things that go boom! The Hurri's I can see. If they can strap 40 mm onto the thing in North Africa, they can sure as all get out carry a couple of bombs.

Now, open fire!

[m10bob]

Just found an excellent and detailed site which seems to bear out a similarity to RevRicks findings for that early P47 model, (on the fuel).

http://www.answers.com/topic/p-47-thunderbolt

From this site, I deduce the following:

The original stock P47B with no tanks had a combat range of 800 miles,with an internal tank of 307 gallons, (1155 ltrs)

The P47C2 was the first with a drop tank, 200 gals,(758 Ltrs.)

The P47D-15 had an increase of internal fuel to 375gal(1421 ltrs)
*The wing bomb attachments were made 'wet" on this model so it could carry a 150gal drop tank under each wing, ALONG WITH THAT BELLY TANK!!*


The P47D-25(first bubble canopy) had the same range as the prior model of 1900 miles(1725NMI)

The P47N had a larger modified wing which held another 100 gallons internally, boosting final range to 2000 miles...

BTW, Mexico had a squadron attached to the 5th A.F. in the Philippines in 1945 which completed over 700 sorties without a single loss!(the Escuadron Aereo de Pelea 201)21st Fighter Squadron...


I feel this is the "definitive" site for the P47...:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avp47.html

[m10bob]

After finding that last P47 site, I went to the root of the site and found the author has researched other WWII aircraft in much detail, including the F4F !! (for RevRick!!)

http://www.vectorsite.net/indexav.html

[Iron Duke]

Hi

tinkering with the database it looks to me that adding a drop tank adjusts the endurance value.
Each drop tank in the database has a value under 'effect' eg 300 ltr drop tank has an effect of 79 ,
a 110 gal drop tank has an effect of 110.

When you add a drop tank to an a/c it is this value that is added to the endurance.

If the endurance value = max range and is already taking into account the use of drop tanks then what could be done is to zero the effect value therefore no endurance/range changes but the load value would still restrict bomb loading at extended radius's.

comments?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

Hi

tinkering with the database it looks to me that adding a drop tank adjusts the endurance value.
Each drop tank in the database has a value under 'effect' eg 300 ltr drop tank has an effect of 79 ,
a 110 gal drop tank has an effect of 110.

When you add a drop tank to an a/c it is this value that is added to the endurance.

If the endurance value = max range and is already taking into account the use of drop tanks then what could be done is to zero the effect value therefore no endurance/range changes but the load value would still restrict bomb loading at extended radius's.

comments?

tinkering with the database it looks to me that adding a drop tank adjusts the endurance value.
Each drop tank in the database has a value under 'effect' eg 300 ltr drop tank has an effect of 79 ,
a 110 gal drop tank has an effect of 110.

When you add a drop tank to an a/c it is this value that is added to the endurance.

If the endurance value = max range and is already taking into account the use of drop tanks then what could be done is to zero the effect value therefore no endurance/range changes but the load value would still restrict bomb loading at extended radius's.

Sorry Iron Duke, but without proofreading your comments, or an explanation of your "tinkering", I just don't understand your thread?

Is this in response to the info I provided at all??
Please specify in your remarks who you are responding to, as I made remarks with historical tank sizes, and the ranges they created for "combat mission ranges", (not ferry ranges)...[:)]

[Iron Duke]

Hi
It was not aimed at anybody specific , just trying to put information on the table for discussion

tinkering with database means i added drop tanks to a/c and observed, when the scen was run , an increase in the a/c 's endurance that equalled the 'effect value' associated with the 'device'-drop tank , this was in response to the posts that nothing changes if you use drop tanks and that they are just chrome

From what i've seen adding drop tanks will change the ranges and if as el cid has stated ranges are already including the use of drop tanks then adding them will give an additional increase in range. Either the endurance value for a/c should be changed to a value representing max range on internal fuel or the 'effect' value for drop tanks should be zeroed.

cheers

[el cid again]

couple of questions el cid , having added stock drop tanks onto stock aircraft and seen an increase in max range,extended range,normal range and endurance [the increased endurance is only shown ingame on the aircraft data screen] is the statement above true? If you are adding them are you or have you adjusted the endurance values of a/c in your mod? Was it you that said the endurance values for a/c already accounted for drop tank ranges[if it wasn't apoligises] if they are then adding drop tanks will give inflated ranges to all a/c with drop tanks.

becoming more confussed by the minute!

cheers
el cid does do you know what endurance represen max,normal or extended range or some other value[besides minutes of flight before no fuel as stated in manual]

Endurance (in minutes at cruising speed) = transfer range.

Normal range is 30% of that, rounded down

Extended range is 40% of that, rounded down

That is by the book - but in fact a few cases seem to round up - I cannot explain this when often 0.99 does NOT round up - but SOME do. Probably more of that hard code.

These ranges are not related to drop tanks per se. IF the plane needs drop tanks, they should be added, in my view - but the game is more or less the other way around - no drop tanks and NO load for them either. Thus the Zero has no drop tank - but it also cannot carry its weight. In effect in the game right now drop tanks are sort of built in tanks.

And yes, I did modify ranges - every time they were wrong - but no - never if they were right. The debate comes in about what is right? One famous player and modder insisted I took away the range of the "long range Pete" - although there was never a Pete with long range as far as I know (and I am close to an expert on Japanese planes). But many cases exist with passionate opinion and differing sources to back them.