KB after PH strike

[ChezDaJez]

I see nothing wrong with sticking around PH after the strike or even going CV hunting afterwards.

I do see something wrong with going CV hunting WITHOUT striking PH unless 1st turn surprise is OFF so that the Allied player at least has a chance to give his carriers orders and put them in effect.

Chez

[bradfordkay]

My problem with it, Chez (sorry, I forget your real name), is that they start the game off Hawaii with full tanks and full tankers in the replenishment fleet. Thus the KB has spent absolutely no fuel to get there. If the KB and its replenishment fleet were to have the amount of fuel used to get there subtracted from their totals, I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

[pauk]

good question for poll would be: how many ships (BB) do you sink in first PH strike?

[ChezDaJez]

My problem with it, Chez (sorry, I forget your real name), is that they start the game off Hawaii with full tanks and full tankers in the replenishment fleet. Thus the KB has spent absolutely no fuel to get there. If the KB and its replenishment fleet were to have the amount of fuel used to get there subtracted from their totals, I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

I understand. I would not be adverse to a database adjustment to compensate. I'm actually surprised that it hasn't been done in one of the official patches. It should apply to all units that take advantage of the bonus movement.

BTW, Chez, Steve, "Hey you," everything works! [:D][:D]

Chez

[ChezDaJez]

good question for poll would be: how many ships (BB) do you sink in first PH strike?

My best was 2 but I'm not really worried about sinking them. Significant damage that puts them in the yards long enough for me to have my fun is all I really care about. I'm more concerned with reducing Allied airpower as much as possible and taking out the carriers.

Unfortunately, my Allied players seldom let their carriers come out and play. I can't figure it out.[:D]

Chez

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

This is one good reason why you and your opponent should correspond briefly before starting a new game.

Yep. You have to agree on some houserules anyway. I am a big historical what if fanboy (along being an IJN one), so in my PBEMs I volunteerily do NOT go after the CVs. Of course if the USN player acts also historically (ie. retreats for his own sake), if not the hunt begins.

I dont understand those who hang around for more days (IIRC Fuchida and ALL others were for a second strike except Nagumo). It is gamey, not to mention after strike No. 2 KB attack sqns have a morale of cca 40+ max, and at least half of the planes are damaged. No point losing all those pilots in exchange for so little.

[el cid again]

Hi. Japanese players who do anything other then retire to refuel after Dec 7 strike on PH

This seems to be a sentence fragment - is it fill in the blank?

Most US officers at the time felt Japan SHOULD have launched another strike

Japanese AIR officers at the time felt Japan SHOULD have launched another strike

Adm Yamaguchi ORDERED his planes to stand up for another strike and asked permission to launch

Not sure why there is ANY controversy about that?

As for other ops, Adm Yamamoto - surely someone whose opinon matters - decided the day after PH that he should have assigned the assets for a more sustained attack - specifically including invasion forces to follow up after more air strikes.

I know there is a club of believers that "history can not deviate 1% from what happened and not upset me"

but history is really about possibilities - not certainties. IMHO it is not simulation if we cannot explore possibilities. If you want certainty, watch a movie - the same movie - over and over - about the PH attack.

[el cid again]

I dont understand those who hang around for more days (IIRC Fuchida and ALL others were for a second strike except Nagumo). It is gamey, not to mention after strike No. 2 KB attack sqns have a morale of cca 40+ max, and at least half of the planes are damaged. No point losing all those pilots in exchange for so little.

But there IS a point in retreating, meeting up with the tankers, refueling, repairing planes, and then comeing back - EAST of Hawaii - hoping to catch cripples running for the West coast - or reinforcements coming in - or carriers returning to port. With rested air groups, repaired airplanes, and partly restored morale - about 2 days later.

[el cid again]

My problem with it, Chez (sorry, I forget your real name), is that they start the game off Hawaii with full tanks and full tankers in the replenishment fleet. Thus the KB has spent absolutely no fuel to get there. If the KB and its replenishment fleet were to have the amount of fuel used to get there subtracted from their totals, I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

I understand. I would not be adverse to a database adjustment to compensate. I'm actually surprised that it hasn't been done in one of the official patches. It should apply to all units that take advantage of the bonus movement.

I have corrected the tanker task force to its real size (two are missing) - and organization - it has two divisions of four tankers - only the first with escort. The second division I do not allow to appear for 14 days - Dec 21 - as a way to simulate half the fuel of the TF being "used" outbound. The ships mid-Ocean have half the fuel - by the field expedient method only half of them are there! [The warships actually do consume fuel by the way - to the extent they move].

[el cid again]

There wasn't a "well, it's okay if they only stick around a day or two" choice... I really wish that the replenishment TF did not have a full load. This would make the question moot. Does anyone know if it is possible to have ships start with a partial load if at sea on turn 1?

In RHS the replenishment TF is partly not present - to make the de facto fuel available smaller.

And one of my (ungentlemanly) secret tactics - as allies - is to hunt replenishment (and invasion) TFs - with carriers. Even the worst TBD is dangerous to them! Not fair - to be sure - but it hurts the enemy!

[el cid again]

Not completely, as the IJN had operated it's CV's off the China Coast many times in previous years. With that as "cover", and a "night speed run" to get into range, the Philippines IS a possible target for the 7th.
But some Allied reaction should be available because they WOULD know where KB was. It's the game's "suprise" movement bonus that is abuseable, as it allows "suprise" movement in areas where suprise was totally impossible, even absurd.

"Absurd" is in the eye of the beholder. The real mind state of the Allies on Dec 8 1941 (I only use Tokyo time in this theater) is impossible to simulate well - real players know too much. The US really did lose the KB - it is absurd to think it might not have appeared ANYWHERE by surprise - as Adm Kimmel stated. RN signals intel at Singapore found every Japanese merchant would be in Japanese waters by Dec 8 1941 - was not that a clue this was a very unusual date? Forbidden to share that datum with USN, the captain in charge shared it with us anyway - but did we pay attention to his warning? Not very well.

[Black Mamba 1942]

This brings up the FREE three week move with no expenditure in fuel.

This allows the Japanese the ability to "hang" around for almost an entire month, and capture bases that they had no ability to take.

Just another built in exploit for the IJN.

[Kapten Q]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

I have been the victim of this. More then once. Again, we are getting into what is "realistic" or not. Is it realistic, to strike manilla with KB 1st turn? No...but its a game. You present me the units. How I employ them should be up to me.

If I wanted to replay how Nagumo did it exactly. Id read about it not play it. I think the point of wargames is to see how history would of been different...if/then.

This is one of the best things writen on this forum ever [;)]

Q

[treespider]

I say let them stick around....


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 111,68

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu, Shell hits 5
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 1
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei, Shell hits 2
BB Kirishima
CA Tone, Shell hits 5, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Shell hits 1
CL Detroit
CL St. Louis, Shell hits 3
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Blue, Shell hits 1
DD Helm
DD Mugford, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Henley, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis, Shell hits 3, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 111,67

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu
CV Soryu
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
CV Akagi
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima
CA Tone, on fire
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo
DD Kagero, on fire
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Urakaze
DD Hamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Arare
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
DD Monaghan
DD Aylwin, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Allen
DD Schley
DD Ward

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I dont understand those who hang around for more days (IIRC Fuchida and ALL others were for a second strike except Nagumo). It is gamey, not to mention after strike No. 2 KB attack sqns have a morale of cca 40+ max, and at least half of the planes are damaged. No point losing all those pilots in exchange for so little.

But there IS a point in retreating, meeting up with the tankers, refueling, repairing planes, and then comeing back - EAST of Hawaii - hoping to catch cripples running for the West coast - or reinforcements coming in - or carriers returning to port. With rested air groups, repaired airplanes, and partly restored morale - about 2 days later.

Agreed, but then why KB have not done it?

[Akos Gergely]

Simply because they did not have the tanker support; they were on the very edge of their so called "action radius" Something that the IJN lacked throughout the war (perhaps even more than CVs) were fast fleet tankers - the USN also had this problem early in the war, that is partly why the Wake relief operation was called off, and that is why the old BBs were not deployed in the Solomons campaign.

BTw I agree that it is completely ahistorical to stay around PH for days...

Cheers

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I would say I'm ok with KB sticking around. That being said, I've never been subjected to 4 days worth of strikes by KB. I can say after just 2, my AFs were compeltely destroyed, had lost 4 BBs, and 2 major damage, and 2 more moderate damage (plust several cruisers damaged). Had my opponent stuck around, there was nothign I could do about it (AF damage 100%). I'm not sure THAT is realistic, in that, I don't think if historically KB had stuck around for another round of strikes, that PH would have had ZERO ability to respond, to say nothing of the limited amount of specialized ordiancne that was used in the PH strike.

Still, 2 days of strikes were fine (did a lot of damage, but I don't think gamey). I could maybe live with a 3rd day of strikes, but a 4th is pushing the evelope. But again, I've never been subjected to 3 or 4 days of strikes, so I can't really say how bad off things would be (it just -seems- that they would have more damage than was historically possible).

-F-

I have been the victim of this. More then once. Again, we are getting into what is "realistic" or not. Is it realistic, to strike manilla with KB 1st turn? No...but its a game. You present me the units. How I employ them should be up to me.

Not completely, as the IJN had operated it's CV's off the China Coast many times in previous years. With that as "cover", and a "night speed run" to get into range, the Philippines IS a possible target for the 7th.
But some Allied reaction should be available because they WOULD know where KB was. It's the game's "suprise" movement bonus that is abuseable, as it allows "suprise" movement in areas where suprise was totally impossible, even absurd.

If I wanted to replay how Nagumo did it exactly. I'd read about it not play it. I think the point of wargames is to see how history would of been different...if/then.

The point would be to see if you could have done it better than Nagumo WITHIN the constraint's Nagumo actually faced. To take advantage of a "loophole" in the game's rules kind of spoils the satisfaction of thying to do it better. The real KB COULDN'T "fly" fuel free all over the Pacific Basin and just appear by suprise to attack. In the game, you can. But if you do, you are not re-creating Nagumo's choices---you are just playing a game against the designer's failures. Have fun..., but don't confuse your results with "history".

Hello Mike. I think to presume that somehow the then inept US military would've been much better prepared for an attack on PI has some wisdom to it, but only in as much as the PH debacle couldn't have been much worse. How many nations that are at peace with you one minute, then attacking you the next, don't achieve a high level of surprise? Look at the German invasions and see how many nations looked like they were ready. The most ready was the USSR and they thought the Brits were trying to lead them into war with Germany. Sure KB's presence abroad would have to indicate the possibility of hostile action, but then so did the troops amassed in Prussia, and the Siegfried Line. You attack a limited area with a nation you were at peace with, with a 6 CV force and you are most likely going to achieve surprise. The whole blasted allied response to Axis initial aggressions with a new nation was always one of surprise. Even Italy achieved as much only they didn't have a lot of execution. I'm not sure that validates a surprise as complete on PI as on PH, but I don't see any evidence that the allies ever were ready for anything that hit them, even if like in France they knew for a very long time something ought to happen.

[Ursa MAior]

We'll see monsieur csatahajos. Depending on the Various setup roll I am hoping to find your CVs deployed for action (whatver operation it is). CarDiv2's shipkilling attack daitais are already set tonaval attack.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
How many nations that are at peace with you one minute, then attacking you the next, don't achieve a high level of surprise?

Well this a rude oversimplification of the situation in the Pacific in dec 41. FDR was busy dragging the US into the war against Japan since months by then. Knowing the japs (see Russo-Japan war in 1904) I am not exegarating saying he has sacrified the old BBs, in exchange the war he wanted. Something Eisenhower did in the Battle of the Bulge to make the huns to get out behind the Siegfried line.

[Akos Gergely]

"I am not exegarating saying he has sacrified the old BBs, in exchange the war he wanted" - Well we do agree on this point my friend - and I have to say while I'm a big BB fan these ships were in need for a thorough refit anyway so it was not that great a sacrifice in operational terms - of course the ~2000 lives lost are not so easy to justify, but I have to say the two sides at Stalingrad lost much more than that every day....

PS - Ursa, I'm not sure BTW that we got a variable set up (I may be wrong but I think it only works with historical first turn off - but I have to chek this in the manual...)