RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

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el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

If you choose to ignore historical precedence, thats fine. But creating another wrong doesn't make it right

You are barking up the wrong tree. I am a choirboy (really and in this case figuratively). I think we are honoring historical data - and I think we are honoring the rules of mathmetics as applied to simulation - both of which I have some training in. Giving in to the JFBs on this topic would create a model that is less accurate than sticking with Joe and Andrew's doctrine: go with the data. It may be hard to understand, but just because someone did something does not make it proper to permit it.
There were long range bomber missions by Allied bombers in this same area we do not allow - because they modified the bombers. Joe correctly said we COULD allow them ONLY if we created a special plane - a modified one. The zero case is worse - because it was not a special plane - but a plane flown OUTSIDE SOPs. Sakai said they had to fly very slowly, at a fuel optimum speed, resulting, over long durations, in a flight few of us would be able to perform. Some people have objected even to range 10 missions - because they don't believe pilots can do it. And they are right - it is hard to do. But I will not penalize - or boost - one plane. We cut the zero by 10% - we cut them all.
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ChezDaJez
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by ChezDaJez »

You are barking up the wrong tree. I am a choirboy (really and in this case figuratively). I think we are honoring historical data - and I think we are honoring the rules of mathmetics as applied to simulation - both of which I have some training in. Giving in to the JFBs on this topic would create a model that is less accurate than sticking with Joe and Andrew's doctrine: go with the data. It may be hard to understand, but just because someone did something does not make it proper to permit it.
There were long range bomber missions by Allied bombers in this same area we do not allow - because they modified the bombers. Joe correctly said we COULD allow them ONLY if we created a special plane - a modified one. The zero case is worse - because it was not a special plane - but a plane flown OUTSIDE SOPs. Sakai said they had to fly very slowly, at a fuel optimum speed, resulting, over long durations, in a flight few of us would be able to perform. Some people have objected even to range 10 missions - because they don't believe pilots can do it. And they are right - it is hard to do. But I will not penalize - or boost - one plane. We cut the zero by 10% - we cut them all.

Preventing an occasional extreme mission is one thing, preventing an entire historical campaign is quite another.

Are you going to cut the range of any other aircraft that needed belly tanks to fly a mission? Why not cut the range of the P-38 while were at it so that they can't ever do a Yamamato style intercept mission. Or what of the Hellcats that routinely flew with belly tanks to extend their range? If you're going to do it to one, do it to all.

The true problem is with the map. The range from Rabaul to Guadalcanal IRL is about 560 nm. That's a shade over 9 hexes in the game so even if you limit it to 10 hexes, the A6M2 could go the distance, and did day in and day out for over 5 months.

Chez

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Andrew Brown
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Are you going to cut the range of any other aircraft that needed belly tanks to fly a mission? Why not cut the range of the P-38 while were at it so that they can't ever do a Yamamato style intercept mission. Or what of the Hellcats that routinely flew with belly tanks to extend their range? If you're going to do it to one, do it to all.

My view on this has not changed. The Zeros were operating under special conditions (outlined above). I would consider increasing the range, as long as many other aircraft that flew long range missions, such as the B-24, had their ranges greatly increased as well. Are you sure that this is a good idea?

But my preference remains to stick to more conservative operating radii for all aircraft.
The true problem is with the map. The range from Rabaul to Guadalcanal IRL is about 560 nm. That's a shade over 9 hexes in the game so even if you limit it to 10 hexes, the A6M2 could go the distance, and did day in and day out for over 5 months.

The stock map is innacurate in a lot of places. When I drew my own map, I found that the fit for a lot of the map distances was actually closer if the map was assumed to be drawn in statute, rather than nautical, miles. So I drew my map using a statute scale. Since aircraft ranges should be set using the same distance scale in the game data, it shouldn't matter what scale is used for the map - statute or nautical - as long as the map is as accurate as possible and everything is consistent.

If I was drawing the map again, I would choose nautical, not statute, miles for the scale.

Andrew
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witpqs
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by witpqs »

Andrew,

Do I read you right - 1) the map (including your map) is in statute miles, 2) the unit data is in nautical miles, so 3) the range of all units (air and sea) is cut by the conversion factor?
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Andrew Brown
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by Andrew Brown »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Andrew,

Do I read you right - 1) the map (including your map) is in statute miles, 2) the unit data is in nautical miles, so 3) the range of all units (air and sea) is cut by the conversion factor?

No. Aircraft speeds are in statute miles. So is my map. If the map was changed to nautical miles, then the aircraft speeds would be converted to the same measurement. Either way the range should then come out to the correct distance in hexes, according to the map scale.

Just to complicate things, however, is the fact that ship speeds are in knots (nautical miles), meaning that all ships travel 15% slower than they should on the statute mile map. I am leaving it that way, however, as it is not outside the bounds of reason that ships would travel more slowly than their rated speeds (due to zig zagging, course changes etc.).

Andrew
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witpqs
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by witpqs »

Ah! Got it - thanks.
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I think the "key" word in your explaination is "supposed"..... The Japanese had a lot of "ideas" about their planned "Jutland in the Pacific" that didn't work out in practice......Look what happened to the Kitakami and the Oi, the "torpedo cruisers" that were going to be used in the "battle".....Reconfigured as Daihatsu Carriers, and then as Kaiten Carriers; they both went on to accomplish absolutely NOTHING......Or almost as much as the LITTLE MORE THAN NOTHING accomplished by "midgets".....Given the almost useless nature of these "weapons", are they worth the trouble of the additional coding required?

This is quite a ramble, Cid, but not much substance
My views on this subject are unconventional. First, I know the curator of a museum which long had custody of a from of midget which is not listed anywhere: it has now been sent to a museum in Japan. [Nothing like getting ones hands on something that "does not exist" to cause one to suspect it existed, after all.] This particular midget is a variation of Kaiten adapted to special operations - it is not a weapon but a recon type.
Second, it was found in July 1945 by the US Army (not exactly a pro-Japanese source, nor a source able to do much in the way of fabricating submarines) on beach patrol in Panama. There is no way, if you accept official history, it could be there. But it was. Presenting a conundrum: if it was there, something took it there: what? My bet is a submarine, but nevertheless, what submarine? There are no nice answers to these questions - for those who "know" all that midgets and parent vessels did "practically nothing." So the US Army found another midget washed up on the beach in Panama? So what? They found 'em washed up on the beach at Oahu and several other places as well. Are we talking about the dangers of a two man invasion? Apparently they weren't very good sea boats, but that hardly makes them effective weapons of war.

Then there is the matter of the picture. The same museum curator had a copy of a Japanese recon picture taken at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. He asked all who would look what it shows? Eventually he put it in a book on Japanese submarines - Advance Force Pearl Harbor. In it he noted that the advance force, long said to have achieved "practically nothing" - was the only element of the Pearl Harbor Striking force to hit a primary target: an aircraft carrier. He is right, of course: since it didn't happen on the same day it is usually overlooked. This attack (I'm guessing you are refering to the Saratoga) wasn't made by a midget, but a regular submarine. He also published this picture, and it led to a series of forinsic investigations, mainly by Navy experts, but also by academics. It is pretty clear to me the midgets DID achieve something on Pearl Harbor day: it is also clear that it is very hard to tell the difference between an 18 inch torpedo hit from an airplane and one from a midget, particularly since they are the exact same torpedo. I suspect as well it was good politics to ridicule the midget sub concept: we have gone on to use it and we did to this what we did to radio incercept and to stealth materials - we tried to make it look like Axis ideas didn't work - so we could use them to advantage in the Cold War. This conspires with those who love to claim automatic superiority for American technology to make it popular to cite official statements claiming just that - even when the officials knew better and did it for reasons other than academic historical accuracy. I've seen this picture as well, but about the only thing I can say for sure about it is that it proves that if you WANT to see something badly enough you will.
Kind of like the folks who find a picture of Elvis in their peanut butter...

There is a fine book done on all midgets of all nations - Midget Submarines of the Second World War. It concludes the Japanese midgets were superb craft, subject to limitations which always apply to craft of this sort, to this day. They were never able to operate in their design role. They did achieve some successes in two other roles we know of - and if they were also used in special operations the nature of Japanese culture is they will never tell us. [See The China Clipper and The Nagano School for hints in English - that is two different titles - not one long one.]
I think it is worth the effort to give players options to explore a very interesting concept. And it is in any case chrome which was asked for. If you think it's worth the trouble, then by all means do it. That's what "mods" are all about. You could even make a version where they are actually effective military units. Call it the "Brady Scenario".
el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

Are you going to cut the range of any other aircraft that needed belly tanks to fly a mission?

I am the first person ever to offer you any sort of tanks. The tanks were there in the device list since stock - and as far as I know no scenario ever had them. I regard this as a combination of ignorant and argumentative - and while I am argumentative myself - I won't do it to be insulting. The facts speak for themselves, about the primary topic, and about this comment: I have regularly extended plane ranges - and been criticized for it - but stuck to my guns when supported by the data. Check out RHS Allied bombers. Ranges were deliberately and severely limited in CHS and stock and I have addressed that. You also have drop tanks on most P series fighters - and now on Seafire (just added). Just figuring out how to do that was not easy: no one knew or could explain it nor is it documented. I figured out how to figure it out by testing and published the results for any and all to use.
el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

The true problem is with the map. The range from Rabaul to Guadalcanal IRL is about 560 nm. That's a shade over 9 hexes in the game so even if you limit it to 10 hexes, the A6M2 could go the distance, and did day in and day out for over 5 months.
\

Aside from the fact that Andrew Brown's Extended Map is ten times as accurate as stock (I have a 100 point to point analysis if you want to see it - and it is published on this forum),

it is literally impossible to get all ranges right in this sort of map.

Having tampered extensively with Andrew's map to make the RHS map, I am intimately familiar with the issues - and want no part of trying to do it better. It is a nightmare - fix the range here you distort 5 ranges there. You do better - I will use your map - and I will sing your praises too.

And note that this is indeed the most heated topic in this forum - if not the entire web - and there will never be agreement on it. In fact- you are arguing with the one modder who said "why not give em the extra hex" - which means my inclinations were on your side. I am persuaded the CHS team has it right after extensive review - running days - by Joe - into which he brought a moderator. I also have real naval-air operations experience, and aircraft R&D experience: it is a great deal harder to do what you propose than you imagine. Where to draw the line is hard to decide - and if you think the issue is clear - you would not make a good analyst or modder: only if you agonize over it is your attitude right. Because there are valid points on both sides - and severe limits on what we can do. I may be good at what I do - because I listened to Oleg - then I participated in extensive review - and I listened to Joe. NOT listening - NOT changing position - that is also NOT how to get it right.
el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

Just to complicate things, however, is the fact that ship speeds are in knots (nautical miles), meaning that all ships travel 15% slower than they should on the statute mile map. I am leaving it that way, however, as it is not outside the bounds of reason that ships would travel more slowly than their rated speeds (due to zig zagging, course changes etc.).

Lots of reasons make this NECESSARY: ships virtually NEVER go their actual speed. This is becasuse speed over ground (the ground UNDER the water) is not the same as speed IN the water: ever heard of current? What about wind? Wind tends to push you - and only rarely is it pushing the direction you want to go. Usually it is tangentally pushing you off course - and sometimes it is dead opposed to your course. Then there is fouling - salt water corrodes - things living in the sea like eathing your hull - or riding around on it to eat what passes by. These things take significant speed off - the longer since a yard period the worse it is.
In my games I make ships lose speed off the top end if they do not refit!
I also bust engines! Because these are real issues. To say you lose 15% due to zig zagging, wind, current, navigation error, maneuvering in formation, etc is not in the least bad simulation. I don't like it - I want planes and ships on the same scale - and Andrew and I almost had a boxing match about it because of my passion: yet I remain convinced he is quite right that it is not a big issue - for reasons stated above. [I also won the long battle: his next effort will be in nautical miles].
el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

So the US Army found another midget washed up on the beach in Panama? So what?

Not another midget. A midget we know nothing about, no one ever admitted designing or building or sailing, or carrying. A midget with a different FUNCTION than we know about. A midget that COULD NOT BE where it was - when it was there - if what we know is right.

It means - clearly means - we don't know about the midgets - or their carriers. It means what we think we know is very much more limited than the reality. Ever heard of the biologists law? [If you find a rabbit in a field, there are more rabbits.] It matters. I am a professional analyst of matters of this sort: if you don't understand what I am trying to say, ask another.
el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

Advance Force Pearl Harbor. In it he noted that the advance force, long said to have achieved "practically nothing" - was the only element of the Pearl Harbor Striking force to hit a primary target: an aircraft carrier. He is right, of course: since it didn't happen on the same day it is usually overlooked. This attack (I'm guessing you are refering to the Saratoga) wasn't made by a midget, but a regular submarine.

Quite right. But my point - and Burls - remains: we usually say - and write - and read - that the Pearl Harbor Striking Force did NO damage to its primary targets - the carriers. Yet this is untrue, and the damage was in fact done by one of those "ineffective" I boats we also talk so much about. It is true the Advance Force was a disappointment, in technical and in operational terms. Yet it was vastly more effective than our submarine force of the same period. It had torpedoes that worked - and if IJN sub commanders were not of uniformly aggressive quality - neither were outs: do you know the fraction of US sub commanders relieved for cause in the first year of the war? It is embarassing so I won't say the number. My point is that we tend to understate the real achievements of the submarine force - and that is the one force that did use the midgets with effect (unlike, say, the seaplane carriers at Midway).
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

I've seen this picture as well, but about the only thing I can say for sure about it is that it proves that if you WANT to see something badly enough you will.
Kind of like the folks who find a picture of Elvis in their peanut butter...

So US Navy forinsic photographers and the US Naval Institute Proceedings are now in the league of those who believe in Elvis. I think you just lost most of the rational readers with that one - and I will stand with the professionals, thank you very much. Actually I think your attitude is fully displayed - because the picture is almost convincing without technical analysis. You can see the torpedo track in it if you use modern image enhancement - clearly. But technical analysis supports what you think you see. Since you cannot see what at least 4 out of 5 others see - and will not consider technical evidence or opinion-

I think I am done with this discussion.
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ChezDaJez
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by ChezDaJez »

My view on this has not changed. The Zeros were operating under special conditions (outlined above). I would consider increasing the range, as long as many other aircraft that flew long range missions, such as the B-24, had their ranges greatly increased as well. Are you sure that this is a good idea?

But my preference remains to stick to more conservative operating radii for all aircraft.

Andrew, I have to disagree with your position. As I stated above, its one thing to deny the occasional extreme mission but this prevents an entire campaign.

Nerfing an aircraft's range that was well within its capability and was amply demonstrated day after day during the Guadalcanal campaign is not the way to demonstrate historical faithfulness. Your claim that only highly experienced pilots were capable of this feat is incorrect. By the end of the campaign, the Japanese were using pilots to fly the slot who were of less experience than their allied counterparts. Yet they still managed to pull it off. And the A6M2 needed no modifications to perform this mission, just a belly tank.

As far as the B-24 argument... yes, they flew extreme range missions near the end of the war. I believe the longest missions logged was from Mindoro to Balikpapn at around 13.5 hrs. The range was a bit over 2000 miles round trip. AFAIK, they flew about 10 of these missions with greatly reduced bombloads. They carried 4-250lb bombs IIRC. Gunners were limited to one ammo box per gun. The aircraft was modified by removing some armor and other equipment. In addition they had fuel cells added in the bombbay.

For all intents and purposes, you could say it was a field variant which could be modeled as a separate B-24 if necessary, call it the B-24D-1 or whatever. You could give it a low production rate beginning in 1945. It would be nice if this could be done to relfect the capability of these field-modified B-24s so that they too could have a historical capability.

If something like that can't be done, that's fine. I would then support the extreme range capability for the B-24. They demonstrated the ability to do so... with modification.

What I want is as accurate a simulation of historical capabilities as possible. If that means every B-24 can fly 17 hexes to a target, so be it. If that means letting the Zero fly to Guadalcanal and back, so be it. I don't care whether its an allied or Japanese aircraft... give it the ability to perform missions that it did historically. If an aircraft needed special mods to perform the task, model it as a variant... whatever is necessary to ensure a historical capability.

This is not meant as a threat or insult but I will not play a mod where certain weapons systems aren't allowed to do what they did IRL. Stock WitP already has enough inaccuracies in it without further exacerbating the issue.

A related issue... Have you considered the effect this mod will have if there is a struggle for Guadalcanal? As the Japanese player will be reluctant to send Bettys down to the slot, that leaves routine naval bombardment as the only way to interdict the airfield. I can hear the cries from the AFBs now!

Chez
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by DD696 »

Chez -

The simple fix for your problem is to select whatever scenerio you want. You have as much control over the editor as anyone else does. If you do not like something, edit it - before you start the scenerio, of course. I find things that I don't agree with and change them to suit my expections of the game. For example, the recent hoopla over airborne torpedoes. I had a problem with them. The betties and beauforts were sinking everything they could see, and they can see much more than they really should. So go to the editor and modify the torpedos. Change the accuracy, whatever you wish. Disagree with whoever you wish, but you can change it just the same as they can.

To me the biggest problem with this game is that you cannot modify a game in progress. This would have prevented a great many restarts for me. I put weeks and months into it and find that there is something that to me makes it not worth continuing. So I stop, go to the editor, change it, and start again. Then find something else and repeat the process. How much better it would be if it could be modified on the fly. That is the major drawback of playing a game that takes so long to complete.
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by mlees »

Change the accuracy, whatever you wish. Disagree with whoever you wish, but you can change it just the same as they can.

The only caveat being that if you wish to play PBEM, you need to share the same scenario data with your opponent...
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by ChezDaJez »

You have as much control over the editor as anyone else does.

The problem here is that RHS is being billed as representing the latest word in historical capability. But with these kind of modifications, it strikes me as being somewhat less accurate than the stock version.

And of course mlees hit the nail on the head... database changes only apply to AI games unless you can convince someone your version is worth playing.

Chez
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el cid again
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

Your claim that only highly experienced pilots were capable of this feat is incorrect.

I met one of those pilots. The most famous of all. Joe effectively used his opinion to convince me Andrew et al were right. I think you are being completely unreasonable to say the evidence does not support them. The best sort of evidence does support them - which is why - in spite of proposing what you want - I went along - and still go along - with their policy. UNLESS you can ADMIT the truth - that the evidence of the eyewitness is what it is - you cannot deal with this issue properly. Denial is not the path to getting it right. I admit there is merit on your side of the argument. But you must admit there is merit - so we can agonize together - or we are not doing the kind of compromising that is required of designers, modders and simulators. If you are NOT on both sides, to some degree, you are not being fair, and your conclusion will be wrong. A balanced compromise must give weight to all sides.
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

The problem here is that RHS is being billed as representing the latest word in historical capability. But with these kind of modifications, it strikes me as being somewhat less accurate than the stock version.

I regard this sort of remark as either a display of ignorance of stock, of history, or a deliberate insult. No one familiar with the stock database can be anything but astonished how bad it is. No one familiar with RHS and stock and history can be anything but impressed - even if you disagree here or there (which, given the sheer bredth of the data, must be the case). Not sure where you are going here? But it is not worth paying any attention to someone who thinks 5 - 10 man years of effort have not been productive. We have come a long way, have made significant improvements, and are flexable enough to make more - but IMPROVEMENTS do not mean laying down for JFBs - AFBs - or any one person's opinion. So long as you do NOT admit to having difficulty with what are difficult subjects, you simply take away the weight we normally would give you.

Let me back off ten yards: you would not post so much if you were not sincere; you would not have an opinion at all if you didn't know about this theater and period of history; your input is potentially as valuable as anyone might be. But it won't be possible to use your input if you degrade to insults - like the above - or if you say Andrew has naught on his side - like you did above. I wont read any more if you do either again. I will read and seriously consider ALL you post if you try to be even handed - and not demanding that all agree with you on every point. Andrew and I don't agree on everything. Joe and I don't agree on everything. No one agrees with me on everything - ever. Fact of life. Not a problem either. No need to be insulting - or to say there is nothing on the other side of the argument - particularly when perhaps the preponderence of the evidence is. I am willing to listen to you - so long as you are willing to give and take - not if you already know it all.
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RE: RHS Zero range and midget thing questions

Post by el cid again »

Nerfing an aircraft's range that was well within its capability

Note we have not done that. If I had my way we would make operational ranges 95% of actual. We did not. It is 100% (well - 101% if need be - because I give you up to 1% if it costs you a hex). We didn't do that. That map issues make this sometimes a problem are not subject for changing the range of a plane. We would be - statistically - messing with the situation. IF there is a penalty at this point there is a corresponding advantage some other point - and it is EQUAL for all planes. You don't get to increase the range of the Zero - and not every other plane - for the same reason.

And know this: Map distortion is awful at some points - 30% at more than a few and 50% at 2 I measured. Want to increase all plane ranges by 30 or 50% to compensate? And what about where the errors are the other way? Don't they count? Statistically it averages out.

Some day I want a spherical projection.

No map errors.

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