Houston, we have an (economic) problem

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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by RETIRED »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Japan is about 10% the size of the US economy. It is not bad - and was more efficient than Germany - and most of what went wrong was bad decision making.

So the basic assumption is that everything is 1 long ton = one point? That would seem reasonable, and at least make it possible to find numbers to work with. I question your last sentence above. No figures I've ever come across seem to indicate that the Japanese got more "output per man hour" than anybody except the Italians. I know that until Speer the Germans were horrible at resource and manpower allocation (because niether the Nazi's who had the power or the Wehrmacht who made the decisions knew one damned thing about modern industrial practices as invented by the Americans). But everything I've run across showed the Japanese military to be equally incompetent in this field..., and split into two "warring factions" to boot. Where did you get this observation?
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by Bombur »

el cid, I think you developed an interesting fix, but, as the economic model in WiTP allows resources to generate supply automatically, your mod probably results in too much supply for Japanese, thus allowing them (and the allies) to hold forever areas with abundant resources (say, Kuala Lumpur) even if they are cut off from sea/land supply. As far as production is of concern, the resource shortage seems to be less serious than oil shortages.
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by bradfordkay »

IIRC, Sid has created artificial "supply sinks" to eat up the extra supply created at resource centers, negating that problem.
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

IIRC, Sid has created artificial "supply sinks" to eat up the extra supply created at resource centers, negating that problem.


-How did he accomplish that?
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: RETIRED

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Japan is about 10% the size of the US economy. It is not bad - and was more efficient than Germany - and most of what went wrong was bad decision making.

So the basic assumption is that everything is 1 long ton = one point? That would seem reasonable, and at least make it possible to find numbers to work with. I question your last sentence above. No figures I've ever come across seem to indicate that the Japanese got more "output per man hour" than anybody except the Italians. I know that until Speer the Germans were horrible at resource and manpower allocation (because niether the Nazi's who had the power or the Wehrmacht who made the decisions knew one damned thing about modern industrial practices as invented by the Americans). But everything I've run across showed the Japanese military to be equally incompetent in this field..., and split into two "warring factions" to boot. Where did you get this observation?

It might better be said "they were unequally incompetent in this field."
In part it was cultural and institutional. In the Army in particular, logistics was not regarded as truly the business of a samouri. A division might have a captain as its supply officer - so he lacked the clout from rank alone that a similar officer would have in a Western army. But do not confuse statements like these to yield complete understanding of the situation. The exceptions were, understandably, effective. If Yamashita was a contemporary Japanese great captain (and most historicans think he was), it was not only because he was Rommel like in his conduct (i.e. respected even by enemies for his conduct in the field) - it was because he believed logistics should be the heart of an operational plan. Offered no less than five divisions for the invasion of Malaya, he used only three, on logistic grounds: the available transport could not support more than that. Not quite believing him, he was given four - but one was not used at all - until it transferred to Burma Area Army. Turns out he was quite right: when the British surrendered he was considering suspending offensive operations due to a lack of ammunition and supply within a day or two. The system could barely support three divisions at the pace they had marched, taking Singapore in exactly 100 days.

Yamashita was not alone - other Japanese appreciated the significance of logistics. The navy, perhaps a more important branch in a naval war, was modeled on RN, and anyway a modern navy is forced to focus on maintenance (because ships in salt water are constantly rusting, and machinery used is constantly wearing and breaking down). Japan had its own Albert Speer - and to a degree it reorganized its economy. In the vital area of aircraft production (see The Air War - not the big picture book but the little one comparing all war aircraft economies) Japan did far better than Germany or Italy in terms of production for its size - and naturally that was reflected in things like productivity. Yet it was not as productive as the US or the UK. By the time it got better, we were better still. Nevertheless Japan did things I was formally taught it did not (like convert automotive factories to aircraft production - in fact it did so too much - hurting tank production until it was too late).

Related to this is behaviors off shore. The Army (that institution which was possibly the very worst of all in terms of logistic focus) a theater commander literally broke military law in his treatment of people in Malaya. Charged by critics - an investigating commission was sent. Its report is quite surprising: It found the general guilty as charged, but it recommended NOTHING be done - because his policy was in Japan's interests. Indeed, oil production was restored ahead of plan - and that in spite of a failure to capture Palembang undamaged and the loss of a shipload of oil experts due to being sunk. This had ripple effects, and it was decided to release all impressed labor in China and other territories,
to return siezed real property to its owners, and other measures - on the logistic basis that the economy would be better off with free people working their own assets. [Fashist theory was not anti-economic - and no where in the world was economic growth better than in Manchuria during the great depression - where it was consistently double digit. In fact, structurally, the United States is a fashist country (small F) insofar as we too believe in private ownership of the major means of production operated under government regulation. Fashist theory was not inherently in favor of inefficiency in the sense socialist or communist ideology is on a structural basis.]

Japan entered WWII with the most modern (and fastest = potentially most efficient in terms of cargo/unit time over a fixed distance) merchant marine in the world. It also enjoyed interior lines - something a US Army Handbook of Military Forces says it effectively exploited. It evolved some reasonable concepts of standardized cargo ships and also (pre war) it had perfected plans for escorts which were adequate. This great asset was not well used: there was never enough shipping to support the economic system - in spite of significant capture of enemy ships (something we cannot simulate because code does not allow it - too much was allocated to military operations and not enough was returned as planned); there were (after 1942) too many losses and not enough production to make it up; there was initially no Grand Escort Command and no plan to mass produce low end escorts in sufficient numbers. [For details of all this, good and bad, see Parillo: The Japanese Merchant Marine and World War II] Parillo argues that the resource could have been better managed, and that to things done too late could have been done sooner.

Strategically, the war is about autarky. That is, Japan does not seek world conquest, just local conquest, and that for economic reasons. It does not plan to invade North America and occupy the White House. [The famous remark by Adm Yamamoto was meant to create a shock: "we will have to dictate peace terms in the White House" was not said because it was possible to do - it was said to convey how much it would take to make Americans surrender.] Instead, Japan believed it could set up a regional, complete economic system - and then make it cost prohibitive to attack it - in part due to sheer distance. USN estimated it was never going to be more than 50% unit effective due to distance alone - compared to how it could fight off our coasts - so we agreed. And Parillo concludes (after looking at the numbers) there was "more than enough" oil to "meet the needs of the Empire" - and also he gives us the numbers for 26 other commodoties - with a similar outcome. Except for uranium (not a factor in pre war thinking) Japan is better off than we are in terms of there is no missing vital raw material. [We lack things like tin and antimony, and USN taught me in basic training there are 40 other things we don't have enough of which must come from other parts of the world]

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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Bombur

el cid, I think you developed an interesting fix, but, as the economic model in WiTP allows resources to generate supply automatically, your mod probably results in too much supply for Japanese, thus allowing them (and the allies) to hold forever areas with abundant resources (say, Kuala Lumpur) even if they are cut off from sea/land supply. As far as production is of concern, the resource shortage seems to be less serious than oil shortages.

To begin at the end - because you are exactly right in your last point - I agree with you. But while you begin with a perfectly correct statement - in terms of the way WITP was designed to work - you do not understand that RHS does NOT work the way stock or CHS or all other mods do:

instead of making supplies at resource centers automatically, we only allow them to be made to the degree it can be justified by production of food, gravel and timber (or equalivent) in that area. This was achieved by creating "supply sinks" which "eat" the excess supply points. This is much harder to do than it sounds like. For one thing, vital places change hands - and after a while the damaged resource centers will return to undamaged ones in most cases - so we had to figure out how to create supply sinks which would appear and eat the supplies - on the other side!
But we did - and now are engaged in medium term games to calibrate (measure) - how well we did (in terms of date of appearance) and other technical things.

In fact, it is much harder for Kuala Lumpur to fall than it was before. And if you think that is bad, try to attack Asonol, India (a potential problem, I may be forced to change it in some way - perhaps spreading the resources over more hexes). IF the Allies defend such places in strength, some of the supply will feed the military units rather than the supply sink,
and they will tend to regenerate rapidly. To the extent this may be a problem - we are watching events (and reports from players) of how things go in such places. I had a small invasion "eaten" by a supply sink - units virtually disarmed to make them of very limited value in combat. But the big ones are not to be wholly ignored. An attacker is well advised to come in strength, and to support the attack with air power, and to use shock to get it over fast - which also limits the damage the defenders can do to the resources or industry present. But none of this seems like it is bad simulation: the Soviets found out (in 1956) that civilians can be very dangerous to tanks - more so even than trained soldiers - if they are numerous enough - even with no true anti-tank weapons other than gasoline. [The Hungarian revolution was begun by a Soviet tank unit, under orders of its commander, attacking a unit of the Secret Police. The Hungarian army and air force went over to the revolution - I knew a Me-109 pilot who even scored a kill on a MiG. But no one remembers the combat of the professionals: it pales before the combat of the civilans.] In WWII you see this in particular at Warsaw - at the "Ghetto" - whose people were formally prisioners and nominally more disarmed than most civilians.
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Bombur
ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

IIRC, Sid has created artificial "supply sinks" to eat up the extra supply created at resource centers, negating that problem.


-How did he accomplish that?

It is a very complex thing - and should be regarded as experimental to a degree even now. We created special engineer units (with virtually no firepower and also very little manpower) and balanced them with support squads. This means a sink is support neutral - it neither gives nor needs support to/from military units. We added static facility squads (invented for CHS and called fortifications there) so the unit won't move - more than one because just one may allow the unit to retreat. [And, rarely, a supply sink MAY retreat in RHS.] We also added aircraft support in a very few cases - where civil aircraft are supported - see for example the Empire Flying Boats. You can move the planes, but not their support, which is fixed at Bombay and Melbourne. But those squads still eat supplies! We had a report (from WITPQS) that these units failed to build - and so large sinks have a few real engineer squads - to insure they will build if you want. [One thing real civil engineers are good at is building].
Now Matrix says this is wrong - that any sort of engineers should build -
but possibly Matrix is wrong - since my tests show WITPQs was right.
The manual may also say WITPQs is right - but it isn't totally clear. Anyway - until we KNOW our civil engineers work - we make sure big supply sinks have some real ones. [If we don't need them I will convert them to field hands - because real engineers are more combat effective than I like in a supply sink].

Turns out supply sinks tend to destroy the resources in the hex (and any industry as well) - a very good simulation. Not as much as I hoped - but 50% or more - according to players - if the attack is over swiftly. If it is drawn out the combined effects of bombardment and engineer demolition is much worse. [If you attack a hex with lots of resources and a supply sink - called something like "Mukden Civil" - hit it hard and fast - to minimize damage]. The names are meant to be short for "Kuala Lumpur Civil Engineer and Labor Unit".

It is actually more complicated than this. Many supply sinks are "hidden" inside static military units - like fixed major HQ or fixed seacoast defense units. Some are combined - eating supplies from adjacent hexes - so few slots need be used to add them. But that is the quick and dirty explanation.
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by RETIRED »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: RETIRED

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Japan is about 10% the size of the US economy. It is not bad - and was more efficient than Germany - and most of what went wrong was bad decision making.

So the basic assumption is that everything is 1 long ton = one point? That would seem reasonable, and at least make it possible to find numbers to work with. I question your last sentence above. No figures I've ever come across seem to indicate that the Japanese got more "output per man hour" than anybody except the Italians. I know that until Speer the Germans were horrible at resource and manpower allocation (because niether the Nazi's who had the power or the Wehrmacht who made the decisions knew one damned thing about modern industrial practices as invented by the Americans). But everything I've run across showed the Japanese military to be equally incompetent in this field..., and split into two "warring factions" to boot. Where did you get this observation?

It might better be said "they were unequally incompetent in this field."
In part it was cultural and institutional. In the Army in particular, logistics was not regarded as truly the business of a samouri. A division might have a captain as its supply officer - so he lacked the clout from rank alone that a similar officer would have in a Western army. But do not confuse statements like these to yield complete understanding of the situation. The exceptions were, understandably, effective. If Yamashita was a contemporary Japanese great captain (and most historicans think he was), it was not only because he was Rommel like in his conduct (i.e. respected even by enemies for his conduct in the field) - it was because he believed logistics should be the heart of an operational plan. Offered no less than five divisions for the invasion of Malaya, he used only three, on logistic grounds: the available transport could not support more than that. Not quite believing him, he was given four - but one was not used at all - until it transferred to Burma Area Army. Turns out he was quite right: when the British surrendered he was considering suspending offensive operations due to a lack of ammunition and supply within a day or two. The system could barely support three divisions at the pace they had marched, taking Singapore in exactly 100 days.

Yamashita was not alone - other Japanese appreciated the significance of logistics. The navy, perhaps a more important branch in a naval war, was modeled on RN, and anyway a modern navy is forced to focus on maintenance (because ships in salt water are constantly rusting, and machinery used is constantly wearing and breaking down). Japan had its own Albert Speer - and to a degree it reorganized its economy. In the vital area of aircraft production (see The Air War - not the big picture book but the little one comparing all war aircraft economies) Japan did far better than Germany or Italy in terms of production for its size - and naturally that was reflected in things like productivity. Yet it was not as productive as the US or the UK. By the time it got better, we were better still. Nevertheless Japan did things I was formally taught it did not (like convert automotive factories to aircraft production - in fact it did so too much - hurting tank production until it was too late).

Related to this is behaviors off shore. The Army (that institution which was possibly the very worst of all in terms of logistic focus) a theater commander literally broke military law in his treatment of people in Malaya. Charged by critics - an investigating commission was sent. Its report is quite surprising: It found the general guilty as charged, but it recommended NOTHING be done - because his policy was in Japan's interests. Indeed, oil production was restored ahead of plan - and that in spite of a failure to capture Palembang undamaged and the loss of a shipload of oil experts due to being sunk. This had ripple effects, and it was decided to release all impressed labor in China and other territories,
to return siezed real property to its owners, and other measures - on the logistic basis that the economy would be better off with free people working their own assets. [Fashist theory was not anti-economic - and no where in the world was economic growth better than in Manchuria during the great depression - where it was consistently double digit. In fact, structurally, the United States is a fashist country (small F) insofar as we too believe in private ownership of the major means of production operated under government regulation. Fashist theory was not inherently in favor of inefficiency in the sense socialist or communist ideology is on a structural basis.]

Japan entered WWII with the most modern (and fastest = potentially most efficient in terms of cargo/unit time over a fixed distance) merchant marine in the world. It also enjoyed interior lines - something a US Army Handbook of Military Forces says it effectively exploited. It evolved some reasonable concepts of standardized cargo ships and also (pre war) it had perfected plans for escorts which were adequate. This great asset was not well used: there was never enough shipping to support the economic system - in spite of significant capture of enemy ships (something we cannot simulate because code does not allow it - too much was allocated to military operations and not enough was returned as planned); there were (after 1942) too many losses and not enough production to make it up; there was initially no Grand Escort Command and no plan to mass produce low end escorts in sufficient numbers. [For details of all this, good and bad, see Parillo: The Japanese Merchant Marine and World War II] Parillo argues that the resource could have been better managed, and that to things done too late could have been done sooner.

Strategically, the war is about autarky. That is, Japan does not seek world conquest, just local conquest, and that for economic reasons. It does not plan to invade North America and occupy the White House. [The famous remark by Adm Yamamoto was meant to create a shock: "we will have to dictate peace terms in the White House" was not said because it was possible to do - it was said to convey how much it would take to make Americans surrender.] Instead, Japan believed it could set up a regional, complete economic system - and then make it cost prohibitive to attack it - in part due to sheer distance. USN estimated it was never going to be more than 50% unit effective due to distance alone - compared to how it could fight off our coasts - so we agreed. And Parillo concludes (after looking at the numbers) there was "more than enough" oil to "meet the needs of the Empire" - and also he gives us the numbers for 26 other commodoties - with a similar outcome. Except for uranium (not a factor in pre war thinking) Japan is better off than we are in terms of there is no missing vital raw material. [We lack things like tin and antimony, and USN taught me in basic training there are 40 other things we don't have enough of which must come from other parts of the world]

All very interesting and well put..., but doesn't answer the question. Where did you get the notion that Japanese Economic Production was "more effiecient" than Germany's? Yes, the Japs got some pretty impressive numbers of A/C turned out in 1944 based on the size of their economy. But overall they got mostly junk for their efforts. Bolt action rifles rather than SG-44's, those crappy "tin cans on treads" instead of Panthers, out-of-date Nambu's instead of MG-42's, the latest mark of Zero instead of Me-262's, etc. The Germans were launching V-2's on London---and the Japs were sending paper baloons in hopes of starting forest fires in Oregon. WHAT is being produced is a major concern as well as how much. And raw numbers can be misleading. As Overy, whom we both admire, points out, the "Production of Aircraft expressed as Pounds per man/day of labor in Japan in 1941 was .63; in Germany 1.15; and in America 1.42. By 1944, Japan's had risen to .71; Germany's to 1.25 (this is down from 1.5 in 1943 due to Allied Bombing); and America's had almost doubled to 2.76. Looks to me like the Japs were less effecient in this respect than the Germans, and neither was in the same league as the Americans.

I'd also dissagree with "Japan entered WWII with the most modern (and fastest = potentially most efficient in terms of cargo/unit time over a fixed distance) merchant marine in the world." She had certainly produced some of the world's newest and best ships during the 1930's, but overall the "average" Japanese Merchant Ship was small, slow, and old. Which is why over a million tons of her merchant shipping was "sidelined" by 1943 not by battle damage, but by lack of spares and for engine repair and service. And this figure rose steadily throughout the war. She never came close to making up for the loss of over 3 million tons of "leased bottoms" at the start of the war, capturing only about 1/3rd of that amount. I agree that they woefully misused what was available..., but what can you do to represent two branches of the same nation's Armed Forces that fight with each other as much as they fight with the enemy. Nothing in the game even begins to represent that particular fact of Japanese Life.
That alone gives the Japanese player a tremendous advantage over his real-life counterparts. How the Devil are they EVER supposed to achieve "effieciency" when the IJN and the IJA can't even agree on a common voltage for their aircraft electrical systems? Thus creating two completely seperate sets of contractors who couldn't work together even if they wanted to?
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el cid again
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

First of all - from The Air War.

Second - from The United States Strategic Bombing Survey. One of its investigators lived near me when I lived in Tacoma, Washington. Because of certain matters that were investigated in our generation, we had a need to know what things looked like in 1946 - so I asked - and he replied with some humility that they did a less than perfect job - but had indeed been told some things we were finding in documents "and we didn't believe it." The parts they did believe are now declassified - and available to read directly.

Third - from The Japanese Merchant Marine and World War II. It is a critical book in many ways - but it also clearly indicates it was a good deal more effective than Germany's merchant marine was - by any measure. There are of course good geographic reasons Germany's merchant fleet could not be very effective - but that only means it is obvious that in that respect my view is correct. Relative to Germany Japan's economic performace was better.

Fourth - from the US Army Handbook on Japanese Military Forces. It too is a critical book in many ways - yet it includes a number of positive assessments and some useful information about what was practice in terms of logistic organization.
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by RETIRED »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

First of all - from The Air War.

So it was strictly an observation based on Number of aircraft produced as compared to size of the economy? No extrapolation to production overall, or the quality of what was produced? In that case, I would have to agree..., but I think you overstated it and gave the impression you were speaking generally rather than specifically.
"There are always three courses of action open to your enemy. And from them, he invariably chooses the fourth." Helmuth von Molke (the elder)
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

No. I have amended my reply to include other matters.

I have also read more of your remarks. I believe you have accepted some common views of Japanese military technology which are incomplete and uncomplimentary.

Japanese tanks were not junk. In some cases Japan was an innovator - for example in the development and then application of diesel engines - a practice that post war became almost universal - with obvious benefits.
Their tanks would not overload the infrastructure of Asia - with a nominal road bridge rating of 10 tons (a heavier vehicle can cross without damage if it is alone and slow - but not a whole lot heavier). [This value you can see written in cement on the bridge supports - I am reporting what is there to see to this day - not quoting a book.] In some cases 1 or 2 light tanks were decisive - and we used weapons in the same class - but somehow Japan is foolish and we are wise? Double standard (SOP when discussing Japan). Are Bren carriers wrong? Look at The Standard Catalog of US Military Vehicles - are our vehicles in the same class mistakes? We also had amphibious "tanks" which could not have much in the way of protection, etc.

Japanese paper baloons had a different strategic mission which is not well documented - only Burt Webber's Secret War catalogs all their landing sites - and it is a fairly awful read. Nevetheless, he has got Japanese to dosclose things not in other published materials for a long time - although now three books do address the matter. [The first is Unit 731]. The baloon bombs with incendiaries were intended to establish if the baloons could deliver packages - but the package intended was ceramic bombs with flea vectors for anthrax. Japan had 16 tons of anthrax - enough to kill the population of the planet if it could be delivered to every person.
When the Soviets invaded, the question was raised between Commander Kwangtung Army and Gen Ichii of Unit 731 (according to his daughter, a witness, in a telephone conversation). They decided not to implement the plan, but to destroy the anthrax, the facilities, and everything else related.
There was a Navy varaition (in Secret War) - using aircraft carrier subs -
to launch baloons so close to the coast targeting of cities would be more precise. [And there is a series of books by a British engineer - and investigator of archives in London - claiming the First Submarine Flotilla may have had a similar mission with M6A1 aircraft - delivering radiological bombs and/or anthrax bombs. A US Army biologist says combining them might be more effective.] If you think we didn't do similar things - see the story of the Bat Bomb (not the Bat missile) - which was perfected but not used - using bats as "delivery vehicles" - and I have a letter written by Oppenheimer about a proposal by Fermi that we develop a radiological weapon. It may be the baloon bombs were potentially more a threat than is usually assumed.

Your view of the merchant marine illustrates how an impression can be completely wrong. I was virtualy quoting Parillo - paraphrasing his published view - and the numbers support him. Japan had engaged in a deliberate governmant subsidy program to insure its ships were retired in favor of new, faster ones - ships also with decks and booms able to handle landing craft - and to mount medium caliber guns. Parillo goes to USSBS and Japanese sources to give us the numbers - and no other merchant marine in the world compares in terms of average ship age or average ship speed. You cannot tell this in WITP (except in RHS) - because the people doing the data bases "knew" Japanese ships were slow - and thus a 22 knot AP is lucky to be rated at 15. You will search in vein the stock or CHS data sets for the large number of AKs able to do 18 knots (meaning 17, 18 or 19).
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

Continuing,

One might compare the USN and US Army to the Japanese services - at times. Somewhere there is a book on the subject - but I forget its name.
If it is true the Japanese services failed to cooperate well much of the time, to say that and stop talking is grossly incomplete. In Japan's most effective campaign (Malaya) the services cooeprated almost perfectly - partly due to a Japanese navy captain who was army oriented - partly due no doubt to Yamashita's attitude - and partly due to doctrine itself.
Japan's army was required to use naval ships designs, ships with naval crews (I mean ARMY ships), and cooperation for amphibious operations.


Similarly, the use of different electrical systems (and you didn't say - but could have and been right - machine guns) on aircraft was a horrible inefficiency. But to stop there is to misrepresent the story. Japan eventualy changed this policy - and you have joint service aircraft operating together with the same aircraft - the same weapons - and the same electrical system. [This case is semi-unknown - although almost every book describing the Ki-67 mentions it in brief form. For a long time the effectiveness of the raids on B-29 bases was secret. That the army and navy COULD use the same bases to stage was new and different - and not something people focus on even when they do talk about these attacks - because other aspects of those joint operations are more interesting.] Japan eventually learned from its mistakes, coming up with joint designations for engines and guns, sharing formerly unshared radar sets, etc. And we made many similar mistakes - right down to NEVER getting a theater commander.

There are a few historians beginning to treat WWII history in a more balanced way. The first were Calvororicci et al - a book set (2 vol) with both Italian and British authors - rewritten with more authors addded - attempting an even handed and less propaganda oriented view. Another is the Welsh scholar who wrote Armegeddon - Welsh often are not entirely pro-British because of how they are treated to this day - this book attempts to dispel "the myths, lies and distortions of WWII". Popular history written for various reasons - but proably most of all to make money so it must say what will sell - is not the only kind. Academics eventualy usually get around to trying to understand the whole story - and writing in a later era often allows more objectivity.
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Supply again

Post by Bombur »

-Back to the question of supply shortage...wouldn´t be better to increase supply by a factor of, say, 2-3 times, and decrease AK capacity in order to simulate the need of more shipping to transport resources?
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Let's not forget that any increase in resources results in same increase in supply...which unfortunately porks everything anyway.
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RE: Supply again

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Bombur

-Back to the question of supply shortage...wouldn´t be better to increase supply by a factor of, say, 2-3 times, and decrease AK capacity in order to simulate the need of more shipping to transport resources?

We did do the second part of this. AK capacity is approximately divided by 2 - except for small vessels which are not fully represented in the listings. Also, a few additional AK - and some AO - are used on the lines of communication to Melbourne, Aden and Colon Panama - and they are not in play either. It is an experiment - I think we need to reduce it even more - but I prefer to insure the system still works with such a dramatic reduction in the context of a great increase in the number required.

We did attempt to triple resources as a first pass - and it was not enough to create the relative situation. We don't want to go too far in that direction - too many resources means they have little value - and we had to change the situation radically - because there were not enough on the entire map to meet Japan's initial needs (never mind expanded needs as it captures territory with industry in it and builds industry). There also had to be enough to feed Australian, Indian and US industry - since we are in RHS needing those supply points from that HI to feed an offensive. So we actually need at least 10x resources - it might be 30x - and only time will show if it is any value in that range. For example, we may find in 1944 that there is not enough resources to feed the by then expanded Allied HI.

Preliminary reports - and I ran one game into 1943 just this week - indicate that it may be 10x is a good guess. If so, I am slightly surprised.
el cid again
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Let's not forget that any increase in resources results in same increase in supply...which unfortunately porks everything anyway.


Oops - not in RHS. When I increased resources - I increased supply eathing sinks to fit. UNLESS a location ALSO generates supply in some form, it generates NO supply points at all. IF it generates both, we don't eat them all, just the ones that are excess. If it generates supply points but no resources - a rare case - the location has no resource centers - but does get supply points. [Mostly that is fishing - where the area produces at least 360 tons per year in excess of local consumption. The only exception that is large is Kodiak.]
Nicholas Bell
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by Nicholas Bell »

I realise there is an obvious answer to this question which I am not seeing, but why not use "Daily Resources" instead of Resource Devices since the former does not create supply points?
el cid again
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by el cid again »

Ah - the pudding - yes. IF you use daily resources at a point - and we do at the map edge for things NOT in the hex - just arriving there -

a) Bombers cannot bomb them
b) Engineers cannot demolition them when the enemy is taking the hex
c) Artillery cannot damage them

and it is said the ENEMY gets to have them (undamaged remember) if he captures the hex.

This makes it wrong to use this field most places. We do use it at supply sources like Aden and United States, etc.
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Bombur
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by Bombur »

A question about rules:

Reading the manual, I concluded that each HI center spends 3 oil/day (2 to generate 1 HI and 1 to generate supply/fuel). Andrew Brown and Nik seem to disagree from me, they say that only 1 oil is necessary. It´s seems that el cid again makes his calculations based on 3 oil/HI. What view is correct?
RETIRED
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RE: Houston, we have an (economic) problem

Post by RETIRED »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Continuing,

One might compare the USN and US Army to the Japanese services - at times. Somewhere there is a book on the subject - but I forget its name.
If it is true the Japanese services failed to cooperate well much of the time, to say that and stop talking is grossly incomplete. In Japan's most effective campaign (Malaya) the services cooeprated almost perfectly - partly due to a Japanese navy captain who was army oriented - partly due no doubt to Yamashita's attitude - and partly due to doctrine itself.
Japan's army was required to use naval ships designs, ships with naval crews (I mean ARMY ships), and cooperation for amphibious operations. When did the US Army build and operate it's own Aircraft Carriers and Submarines? It did operate a substantial number of support and merchant ships (especially in the SW Pacific Theatre), but that was simply because it had the manpower the Navy and Merchant Marine were lacking due to other pressures. The IJN and IJA had virtually seperate allocations of the National Shipping means, and refused for much of the war to carry each other's cargos (or anything to help the Civilian Economy) Given Japan's much smaller economic base, and greater dependence of materials from overseas, this was a truely absurd situation their war effort simply couldn't afford.


Similarly, the use of different electrical systems (and you didn't say - but could have and been right - machine guns) on aircraft was a horrible inefficiency. But to stop there is to misrepresent the story. Japan eventualy changed this policy - and you have joint service aircraft operating together with the same aircraft - the same weapons - and the same electrical system. [This case is semi-unknown - although almost every book describing the Ki-67 mentions it in brief form. For a long time the effectiveness of the raids on B-29 bases was secret. That the army and navy COULD use the same bases to stage was new and different - and not something people focus on even when they do talk about these attacks - because other aspects of those joint operations are more interesting.] Japan eventually learned from its mistakes, coming up with joint designations for engines and guns, sharing formerly unshared radar sets, etc. And we made many similar mistakes - right down to NEVER getting a theater commander. The Allies had a number of "Theatre Commanders". SWPAC, SOPAC, CENTPAC, CBI. If you mean an "Overall Commander" for the entire Pacific Theatre, it was Roosevelt and the Joint Chiefs who handled that role..., and for a reason. The needs of the Pacific Theatre had to be "balanced" with those of the European Theatre (a problem Japan didn't have.)

There are a few historians beginning to treat WWII history in a more balanced way. The first were Calvororicci et al - a book set (2 vol) with both Italian and British authors - rewritten with more authors addded - attempting an even handed and less propaganda oriented view. Another is the Welsh scholar who wrote Armegeddon - Welsh often are not entirely pro-British because of how they are treated to this day - this book attempts to dispel "the myths, lies and distortions of WWII". Popular history written for various reasons - but proably most of all to make money so it must say what will sell - is not the only kind. Academics eventualy usually get around to trying to understand the whole story - and writing in a later era often allows more objectivity. (I'm not about to submit that the Allies DIDN'T have cooperation problems or rivalries. Take a look at "THE WAR BETWEEN THE GENERALS" for a good example of that kind of thing. Simply that the Japanese, who could afford to squander resources, equipment, production, and effeciency the LEAST of any of the major combatants, had "instatutionalized" a rivalry that squandered a higher percentage of them than anyone else. The US could AFFORD two rival drives across the Pacific, and it kept the Japanese "off balance" trying to guess which would "leap" next. Would a "single thrust" have been more efficient? It's possible..., but by 1944 so much material was headed to the Pacific that it would have been hard to apply it in a single area. The Japanese simply could not afford to be maintaining seperate "Army" and "Navy" economies, and eventually they made some steps towards "cooperation". But far too little, and far too late. They needed to have gotten their "sh-t" "straighened away" back in the 30's to have had the kind of cooperation the game provides. And with both services having domestic "political agendas" as well as military ones this just wasn't in the cards. Not even the Emperor thought he had any chance of forcing better cooperation on the two services.
"There are always three courses of action open to your enemy. And from them, he invariably chooses the fourth." Helmuth von Molke (the elder)
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