Dear David Heath
Moderator: MOD_EIA
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Ursa MAior
- Posts: 1414
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:10 am
- Location: Hungary, EU
RE: Dear David Heath
Of course there is no foolproof solution against idiots, but should at least try. Nevermind. I agree with pasternakski we are getting OT.
Art by the amazing Dixie
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SamuraiProgrmmr
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:15 am
- Location: NW Tennessee
RE: Dear David Heath
(Parts of this thread are in response to different posts)
First, the original post in this thread was whether David Heath should have hired Marshall Ellis. I feel that my post was on topic in response to that post.
I have been following the WIF thread.
It is certainly true that judging from the forum, the WIF project is being handled much better than the EIA forum. I have learned a lot from following that thread and have suggested to professional peers that they follow it simply to see a master at work.
But, believe it or not, there are still whiners wanting that game yesterday whether it is ready or not. They blame 'Shannon' for the fact that this project has been worked on for 10 years by others and not finished.
Oh and by the way, MWiF has missed a projected ship date too.
My point is that if enough people make enough noise that a game should be released NOW rather than when it is ready, we will find ourselves in an environment where all releases are unplayable. We will also find ourselves in an environment where all of the games will be FPS, RTS, and RPG.
Wargames are conceptually more complex than most FPSs, RTSs, and RPGs. Certainly the graphics routines are more involved in those, but the things that make a good game (playablity, balance) are more difficult to achieve the more complex the game is.
I love to play Civilization, but sometimes I want something a little more involved. I love to play Rise of Nations and Starcraft, but sometimes I want to be able to consider rather than react. I love to play Quake but sometimes need to relax rather than wind up.
There are a lot of great games out there that would be great candidates for ports to a computer. If, as a community, the message is sent that they are more trouble than they are worth, they will never be ported properly.
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Yes, I am supportive of Marshall. I will not apologize for that. I have worked on several large projects as a solo programmer in my career. This is the time of the project when all self doubts come to haunt. It is the time when you begin to wonder if it will ever be done. It is also the time when you realize that no matter how hard you want it, due to economic constraints, it will not be the piece of technological art that you had hoped for when you started.
I am sure that Marshall is suffering in his labor. I am sure that some marketing types are also feeling some discomfort or even pain.
Whether you intend it or not, the derisive remarks about the people working on this project are much akin to kicking a man when he is down. An even better analogy would be verbally abusing the mother of your unborn child because the labor is taking too long.
Three more things and I will quit for a while.
1. I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else in this forum.
2. I don't have to resort to personal attacks of someone's worthiness to make my points.
3. If you have never accomplished what Marshall is trying to accomplish, you have No Idea how hard it is. Maybe you should think about that before you start calling someone's abilities in to question.
Matrix Games is offering small scale developers a chance to create things they want to create. I applaud them.
First, the original post in this thread was whether David Heath should have hired Marshall Ellis. I feel that my post was on topic in response to that post.
I have been following the WIF thread.
It is certainly true that judging from the forum, the WIF project is being handled much better than the EIA forum. I have learned a lot from following that thread and have suggested to professional peers that they follow it simply to see a master at work.
But, believe it or not, there are still whiners wanting that game yesterday whether it is ready or not. They blame 'Shannon' for the fact that this project has been worked on for 10 years by others and not finished.
Oh and by the way, MWiF has missed a projected ship date too.
My point is that if enough people make enough noise that a game should be released NOW rather than when it is ready, we will find ourselves in an environment where all releases are unplayable. We will also find ourselves in an environment where all of the games will be FPS, RTS, and RPG.
Wargames are conceptually more complex than most FPSs, RTSs, and RPGs. Certainly the graphics routines are more involved in those, but the things that make a good game (playablity, balance) are more difficult to achieve the more complex the game is.
I love to play Civilization, but sometimes I want something a little more involved. I love to play Rise of Nations and Starcraft, but sometimes I want to be able to consider rather than react. I love to play Quake but sometimes need to relax rather than wind up.
There are a lot of great games out there that would be great candidates for ports to a computer. If, as a community, the message is sent that they are more trouble than they are worth, they will never be ported properly.
----------
Yes, I am supportive of Marshall. I will not apologize for that. I have worked on several large projects as a solo programmer in my career. This is the time of the project when all self doubts come to haunt. It is the time when you begin to wonder if it will ever be done. It is also the time when you realize that no matter how hard you want it, due to economic constraints, it will not be the piece of technological art that you had hoped for when you started.
I am sure that Marshall is suffering in his labor. I am sure that some marketing types are also feeling some discomfort or even pain.
Whether you intend it or not, the derisive remarks about the people working on this project are much akin to kicking a man when he is down. An even better analogy would be verbally abusing the mother of your unborn child because the labor is taking too long.
Three more things and I will quit for a while.
1. I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else in this forum.
2. I don't have to resort to personal attacks of someone's worthiness to make my points.
3. If you have never accomplished what Marshall is trying to accomplish, you have No Idea how hard it is. Maybe you should think about that before you start calling someone's abilities in to question.
Matrix Games is offering small scale developers a chance to create things they want to create. I applaud them.
Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?
RE: Dear David Heath
Allow me to give an example. I play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The biggest.
Well Blizzard (and SOE) can afford to lose a certain number of customers and still remain highly profitable. Their customer input often involves less than 1% of their customers having a strong opinion often directly opposed to another less than 1%, neither of which will terminate their billing in any significant numbers over an issue (according to Blizzard and SOE). This of course has led to both of them being viewed as uncaring about their customers and lacking in customer service on a wide range of issues and the concept that you are bying an unsupported piece of software when you chose to deal with these two.
ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer
[:@] I have had all I can stand [:@]
..........
Please read the first post before posting in it.
As for this, take your own advice and READ. The issue here for the truly informed is not that input was allowed - it is a string of broken promises, including at several points insinuated release dates that are off by years which caused pre-orders (not mine). I could not program this game, I am glad Marshall can. I have a way I would love to see the game released that does not mesh with what everyone else wants but each person has their own ideas and noone is going to get the exact product they are hoping for, not even Marshall, since he genuinely seems to want everyone happy.
Many games were announced, developed and released in the time we have been waiting on EiA. At several times release dates were hinted at and never met. A lot of the feedback, and lack thereof, from Matrix fed the frustration. Another example of this is in the Guns of August thread where we finally got the developer telling us that he was working on several projects simultaneously and while he got some flak for a divided attention, generally got everyone to back off and cut him some slack (plus he started beta dragging in most of the discontent so now they are all sharing in the bugs). For the most part I think people are happier with Marshall now than they were a year ago. Yes frustration still runs high but at long as he keeps us updated monthly (approximately - I know he has been off) we are appeased. People like Ralegh and Titi have kep us more calm through vicarious living in the beta and FtF games they share, respectively, with us.
So to the question, should Marshall have been put on this project the answer is easily yes, because from all indications noone else was going to take it over and it had already been dropped by another dev here (plus 2 other attempts that failed separate from Matrix - although I am not sure those were licensed since they just seemed to be fans trying to port EiA). Has Marshall been perfect? No, but noone is. Could he have done better in customer relations? Obviously, but he also saw what we were saying and made an effort. He has given us a lot of input in what things matter and what things do not for the final product. He is much more responsive now than in the past and he genuinely (imho) wants to deliver a great product to the fans of EiA so we can spread the gospel and maybe allow him some reward for efforts beyond all the ulcers, torn out hair, empty pizza boxes and Shasta cans.
RE: Dear David Heath
Well said.
ORIGINAL: Murat
Allow me to give an example. I play a Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The biggest.
Well Blizzard (and SOE) can afford to lose a certain number of customers and still remain highly profitable. Their customer input often involves less than 1% of their customers having a strong opinion often directly opposed to another less than 1%, neither of which will terminate their billing in any significant numbers over an issue (according to Blizzard and SOE). This of course has led to both of them being viewed as uncaring about their customers and lacking in customer service on a wide range of issues and the concept that you are bying an unsupported piece of software when you chose to deal with these two.
ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer
[:@] I have had all I can stand [:@]
..........
Please read the first post before posting in it.
As for this, take your own advice and READ. The issue here for the truly informed is not that input was allowed - it is a string of broken promises, including at several points insinuated release dates that are off by years which caused pre-orders (not mine). I could not program this game, I am glad Marshall can. I have a way I would love to see the game released that does not mesh with what everyone else wants but each person has their own ideas and noone is going to get the exact product they are hoping for, not even Marshall, since he genuinely seems to want everyone happy.
Many games were announced, developed and released in the time we have been waiting on EiA. At several times release dates were hinted at and never met. A lot of the feedback, and lack thereof, from Matrix fed the frustration. Another example of this is in the Guns of August thread where we finally got the developer telling us that he was working on several projects simultaneously and while he got some flak for a divided attention, generally got everyone to back off and cut him some slack (plus he started beta dragging in most of the discontent so now they are all sharing in the bugs). For the most part I think people are happier with Marshall now than they were a year ago. Yes frustration still runs high but at long as he keeps us updated monthly (approximately - I know he has been off) we are appeased. People like Ralegh and Titi have kep us more calm through vicarious living in the beta and FtF games they share, respectively, with us.
So to the question, should Marshall have been put on this project the answer is easily yes, because from all indications noone else was going to take it over and it had already been dropped by another dev here (plus 2 other attempts that failed separate from Matrix - although I am not sure those were licensed since they just seemed to be fans trying to port EiA). Has Marshall been perfect? No, but noone is. Could he have done better in customer relations? Obviously, but he also saw what we were saying and made an effort. He has given us a lot of input in what things matter and what things do not for the final product. He is much more responsive now than in the past and he genuinely (imho) wants to deliver a great product to the fans of EiA so we can spread the gospel and maybe allow him some reward for efforts beyond all the ulcers, torn out hair, empty pizza boxes and Shasta cans.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
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David Heath
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 5:00 pm
RE: Dear David Heath
Hi Guys
Look we can sit back and complain all day long on how long its taken or will take to complete and a lot of other things. In the end none of that is going to help complete the game. Its been a long road for everyone and starting a threat like that is just unfair to Marshall.
David
Look we can sit back and complain all day long on how long its taken or will take to complete and a lot of other things. In the end none of that is going to help complete the game. Its been a long road for everyone and starting a threat like that is just unfair to Marshall.
David