StarForce Again!

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I'm not sure where I got this information, I copied it into a Word file that I keep in my emergency maintenance folder. Therefore, I can't give proper credit to the author.

*********************************************

Starforce Critique

Starforce is a
TrojanKit:
Definition:
1. Security Applications installed without end user consent.
2.Software that grants Ring 0 access to Ring 3 (user level) applications.
3. Interferes with other software such as virtual drives, SCSI/SATA etc.
4. Puts its own virtual protection drivers on the system.
5. Interferes with other applications Windows registry settings.
6. Can be exploited with replacement malicious versions to grant Full Ring 0 access

Starforce once installed is constantly checking your system and sending info to drives interferring with streams back and forth.

SF is so over zealous about its sector checking that if it loses these it will refuse to function. On top of this, XP reads this as a disk I/O error. Which in turn causes it to step down the IDE speed to compensate. Eventually it will step down to the older 16 bit mode which disables DMA access altogether. No DMA means.

1. No Digital access to play audio CD’s
2. Unable to play DVD videos from DVD
3. Most current CD/DVD Games/Application will not run [or slow down to a crawl!)
4. CD/DVD writing becomes almost impossible (Up to 2 hours for a full DVD on 16x DVD writer) and it will make many coasters even on burn proof drives.

The issues concerning DMA can be cured by uninstalling SF and then uninstalling the CD/DVD drivers as well as the Primary and Secondary IDE controllers. Forcing XP to reload those drivers.

Hardware failure:
A lot of new CD/DVD hardware is not PIO mode compatible. Thus any period of time being used in this old 16bit mode can be interpreted by some drives as attempts to Overburn/Read an excessively over burned disk. I.E in over burning you force the laser to go right to the edge of the disk. This results in the laser in many cases hitting the side casing of its guide and in turn stripping the threads off the worm gear. Basically it trashes the hardware.

Some drives also interpret the search for specific sectors indicated by SF as an over burn read/write command.

Security:
SF opens up Ring 0 (super user level) access to Ring 3 (User level applications).

**********************

This kinda explains things doesn't it?

There is a 10th Circle of H*LL waiting for the StarForce people

Excellent material Rhonda.

While it is NEVER the right thing to do, all that you included in the above material, is essentially why many will likely just go the route of downloading, aka pirating, a game, minus the Starforce, and in the process give the game maker the shaft, through a lost sale.
What the game maker needs to fully understand, is once a consumer finds Starforce in one of their games, they are generally black listed immediately by the consumer, and the consumer assumes all of the game maker's games are suspect.
That just inspires more lost sales.

I have to wonder, how a game maker can even today, yet still indulge the use of Starforce as the means of choice, given the considerable negativity directed at Starforce. Even the much hated Windows does not generate the same level of hatred.

For myself, finding a company employing Starforce, is nothing less than removing that company from my list of companies I will buy from. Total loss of economic support.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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JudgeDredd
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by JudgeDredd »

Rhonda

Whilst I have heard much of what you have suggested, via many sources, I still have to say this....apart from the slowdown of burning CDs/DVDs, I have yet to suffer any of the symptoms posted by you here. I am not refuting this information, I just cannot concur with it.

I have yet to have starforce cause me a problem...and it's been on my Windows XP system for a very long time (GTR has been on my computer since it was released...and Silent Hunter III).

So apart from the slow buring of a CD/DVD (and that's only at the beginning...when I start the write it probably takes about 5 minutes to kick in...after that, burn speed is normal), I have not experienced any of the problems mentioned by other people.

That's not to say I promote the product. I don't. And if I had my way, they'd be out of business...because I think it's very intrusive. It's tantamount to a virus which, apparently, causes a lot of problems...but I re-iterate...it's yet to cause me any issues.

Sorry...I thought I'd better clear up why I posted this....it's because I've heard many, many things about starforce and people running about like headless chickens because they think it's going to explode in their PC...I just thought I'd put the other side across...whilst I do not promote it or like it, it's caused me no problems.
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Hertston
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I have yet to have starforce cause me a problem...and it's been on my Windows XP system for a very long time (GTR has been on my computer since it was released...and Silent Hunter III).


That's true of the majority, probably. If it were not, none of the publishers, including those who have since ditched it, would have used it beyond the first game.

However, there seems no doubt that a signficant majority have had problems. I know at least two have - Rhonda and myself, in my case on two completely different systems with no shared components. In both cases installation of Starfarce resulted in a huge increase in DVD burn failures, and verfication of data always failed. Remove SF, problem went. Re-install it, problem back.. so you'll see for me there is no dispute. I have no problem with disk based copy protection to prevent piracy, but Starforce is so inherently flawed and its undesirable effects on legimate users so widespread, the sooner it is gone for good the better. If the company had the balls to admit the obvious and go back to the drawing board I would wish them well (or if it hadn't been for the disgraceful GalCiv 2 incident, I might) but they prefer to stick their heads in the sand instead.
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Brigz
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Brigz »

This is all new to me. I take it that StarForce is an anti-copy protection program. Is there any way to tell if a game you are installing has StarForce protection before you install the game? Does it notify you during installation so you can cancel installation and avoid having StarForce installed? Sounds like a very invasive program to me.
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DuckofTindalos
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

This is all new to me. I take it that StarForce is an anti-copy protection program. Is there any way to tell if a game you are installing has StarForce protection before you install the game? Does it notify you during installation so you can cancel installation and avoid having StarForce installed? Sounds like a very invasive program to me.

That's the core of the issue regarding StarForce. It DOESN'T tell you that it's going to be installed, much less ask for your permission.
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watchtower
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by watchtower »

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Somebody KICK ME... hard!


Never going to kick you hard Rhonda - I Know you will kick back twice as hard and with hob nailed Dr Martin's [;)]
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rhondabrwn
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by rhondabrwn »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Rhonda

Whilst I have heard much of what you have suggested, via many sources, I still have to say this....apart from the slowdown of burning CDs/DVDs, I have yet to suffer any of the symptoms posted by you here. I am not refuting this information, I just cannot concur with it.

I have yet to have starforce cause me a problem...and it's been on my Windows XP system for a very long time (GTR has been on my computer since it was released...and Silent Hunter III).

So apart from the slow buring of a CD/DVD (and that's only at the beginning...when I start the write it probably takes about 5 minutes to kick in...after that, burn speed is normal), I have not experienced any of the problems mentioned by other people.

That's not to say I promote the product. I don't. And if I had my way, they'd be out of business...because I think it's very intrusive. It's tantamount to a virus which, apparently, causes a lot of problems...but I re-iterate...it's yet to cause me any issues.

Sorry...I thought I'd better clear up why I posted this....it's because I've heard many, many things about starforce and people running about like headless chickens because they think it's going to explode in their PC...I just thought I'd put the other side across...whilst I do not promote it or like it, it's caused me no problems.

Yea... and I thought exactly the samw way as you. Chicken Little running around... hackers in a panic... blah blah blah...

and then I got hit with the problems... and I mean massive slowdowns... 2 hours to burn a DVD on a 16X drive while virtually shutting down all other operations on the computer while the burn was in progress. At the time, I didn't know how to remove it and went for a Windows XP reinstall. The reinstall hung at the detecting devices stage and defied all attempts to initiate a fresh installation. I finally had to format my drive to do a new reinstall. I can't prove that StarForce messed up the Windows reinstall, but I sure strongly suspect it had something to do with it!

One tip, I think that my initial problems came after I ran a disk cleanup and removed some "unnecessary files" - I suspect that one of the files that I cleared was something that StarForce was accustomed to searching for and finding. When it couldn't find the file the slow down started.

As others have said, many, many people have had no problems, but you are only an instant away from truely disastrous consequences with this protection program. To me, it is no longer worth the risk. I spent two weeks rebuilding my hard drives and I never want to do that again!

To be forewarned is to be forearmed... you know what to watch for now... keep it in mind. I would also go get the StarForce removal tool and have it saved somewhere. You might urgently need it one day.
Love & Peace,

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sabre100
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by sabre100 »

Les -
 
I agree with you once you I find out a company uses Starforce forget it I just blacklist it unless they come out publicly and say they wont use it anymore like UbiSoft did I dont purchase anything from them no matter how good a game is or is not SH3 is one example good game but forget has starforce.  I was looking into Rush for Berlin and when I read on their forums I said forget it I am not going to buy anything from that company any more.  It is a good idea to check up on the game before you buy it to see if it does have starforce.  I got burned by a game only to find it had starforce.  I stay clear of it, and support companies like Matrix who trust their users and not burden them with ridicioulous copy protection.  More companies should follow suit like Matrix's, Shrapnel and Stardock's for example.  These companies that make it easy to users that support them and a pleasure to purchase from them.
 
 
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JudgeDredd
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by JudgeDredd »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I have yet to have starforce cause me a problem...and it's been on my Windows XP system for a very long time (GTR has been on my computer since it was released...and Silent Hunter III).


That's true of the majority, probably. If it were not, none of the publishers, including those who have since ditched it, would have used it beyond the first game.

However, there seems no doubt that a signficant majority have had problems. I know at least two have - Rhonda and myself, in my case on two completely different systems with no shared components. In both cases installation of Starfarce resulted in a huge increase in DVD burn failures, and verfication of data always failed. Remove SF, problem went. Re-install it, problem back.. so you'll see for me there is no dispute. I have no problem with disk based copy protection to prevent piracy, but Starforce is so inherently flawed and its undesirable effects on legimate users so widespread, the sooner it is gone for good the better. If the company had the balls to admit the obvious and go back to the drawing board I would wish them well (or if it hadn't been for the disgraceful GalCiv 2 incident, I might) but they prefer to stick their heads in the sand instead.

'Tis true, I've heard many more people complain about Starforce and how it caused them problems. I never refuted those statements...it wasn't my place. I don't know how their system worked before and after. I wasn't there when it was installed.

I just thought I'd mention (as I have very rarely seen anyone post) that Starforce hasn't caused me serious problems. I say few...remember...I did say I have suffered an initial slow down when writing DVDs and CDs...so it does cause me problems...they are just so insignificant to me compared to the great games that I have bought that has Starforce as protection.
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Neilster
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Neilster »

Anyone know whether the latest version of Il-2 (with Aces expansion and Pacific Fighters bundled) uses Starforce? I won't be getting it if it is.

I was going to get Silent Hunter 3 until I found out it uses it. Way to go Ubisoft! [:-]

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JudgeDredd
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by JudgeDredd »

I would have thought it does....but I'm guessing. They only just stopped using it...so I reckon it would be too much hassle for them to remove it from their installation packages...but I'm not sure.
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Jevhaddah_Slitherine
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Jevhaddah_Slitherine »

Greetings

Here be a link to the Boycott Starfarce site, it has a list of games we may want to avoid installing.

http://www.glop.org/starforce/

@Rhonda Helloo, I would suspect that the SF device drivers would show up in the Non-Plug and Play section of the Device manager. Just check what is listed in tehre before yoo install a game then check again after installation to see what, if anything has been added.

All the Starforce games I have been suckered into buying have asked me to re-boot after instalation, I suppose to register the drivers at XP startup.

Caveat: all of the above might be a load of twaddle caused by my encroaching senility (well so my bairns tell me) [:D]

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Jev
I am really quite mad yoo know!
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JudgeDredd
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by JudgeDredd »

Well
 
X3, GTR and GT Legends are all games I have...and I want them. However, I will not buy any other games which I know has the protection...for the simple reason that it affects so many innocents.
 
There has to be other ways...these kind of protection utilities simply add fuel to the fire that is software theft!
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by AlvinS »

Does anyone have the boxed version of Take Command Second Manassas? I would like to get this game but I am worried that it has Starforce. Whether or not it hurts computers, I refuse to buy on principle alone if it has Starforce.

Thanks
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Jevhaddah_Slitherine
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Jevhaddah_Slitherine »

Does anyone have the boxed version of Take Command Second Manassas? I would like to get this game but I am worried that it has Starforce. Whether or not it hurts computers, I refuse to buy on principle alone if it has Starforce.

Thanks

Yep I do and it does not have Starfarce on it [:)]

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Awac835
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by Awac835 »

Ive taken the step to simply stop buying games from companies who use StarForce. Like i dont buy games from EA and other such companies who i know often rush games and dont support em for more then a month.

Sure sometimes its a pain when games like Heroes of might and magic 5 gets out. Ive been waiting for that ever since i tried #3, same with GRAW. I played GR1+exp pack. But its UBI games and i dont want to support em, like i dont buy EA games anymore either.

But on the other hand it also saves me money and i keep away from many crap games. Take HOMM5 or GRAW, it turned out both games was rather buggy (Supprise?) and HOMM5 lacked alot of skirmish maps and no map generator or editor was included in the release version. GRAW had bad AI and even worse mulitiplayer. So no loss for me there it seems.
Im tiered of developers who make sloppy and bad games and get away with it again and again. To bad you cant punish em when you already bought there games. But then again you can. Simpley dont buy there next one.
Its sad that i dont have the right to return software the way i can return other goods bought in a store when i find it breaks after 2 weeks of use.
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ravinhood
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by ravinhood »

Judge when 1 or 2 of your dvd/cdroms eventually stops responding or working then maybe you'll be a believer. This is what happened to me after installing and playing X3:The Reunion. Both my regular cdrom AND my burning CDrom began to malfunction and they both just poofed out at the same time. This copy protection is using your hard-drive and cdroms "constantly". Think of it like tires on a car, the more you use them the sooner they are going to wear out. It's wear and tear on your hardware that is "unnecessary". I enjoyed E3:Reunion for the time I got to play it. But, you think I will put it back on my hard-drive just so I can have to buy another dvd/cdrom again eventually because of it much sooner than I should have to? It also is like putting honey in your oil tank of your car. It makes systems begin to run sluggish and bog down. You press your foot on the gas and get no speed increase or performance. Of course there's always some people that live in the "show me state" or "I don't believe it until it happens to me", but, then when it does it's too late to do anything about it then. We're just giving you word of warning "Your Day Is A Coming" ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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JudgeDredd
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by JudgeDredd »

Ravinhood
 
I'm not saying I'm not a believer. I simply said it's hasn't caused me problems worth worrying about (at the moment). I believe people genuinely have had issues. However, I also read somewhere iirc that it was specific drives doing having issues.
 
That may or may not be true. Point is, though, I believe the system is intrusive. I believe there are performance issues when it's installed (I've already stated one case I know of). I believe other people have problems and major issues when it's installed....too many I believes there to be a non believer! [;)]
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ravinhood
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by ravinhood »

But, we want you to stop buying games with Starforce on them Judge, not just believe. ;) Are you a rebel or a Benedict Arnold? ;)
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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rhondabrwn
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RE: StarForce Again!

Post by rhondabrwn »

One thing... once you have the remover tool and know what to look for... then you can play a StarForce protected game (do nothing else) and then remove the StarForce once you are done. I still have Cossacks II on my hard drive, but do not launch it because it will reinstall StarForce. But hey, I paid for that game and got a couple hours of play out of it. I'm not going to trash it... will just take extreme precautions.

Think of StarForce protected software as a "bioweapon" that you have to treat with respect and keep under serious observation and control.

That said - I'm not buying any new game with StarForce, no matter how attractive it might be. And I've got plenty of new Matrix titles to play before I even try to mess with any of those protected titles.

I am still hoping to build a new computer later this summer (bought a washer and dryer yesterday instead) and when I do, the old machine will be stripped of most of the hard drives (I have 4 on it) and turned into a gaming machine while all my DVD burning and video/sound editing goes on the new superbox. StarForce might (and I say MIGHT) be OK to run on such a backup machine for older titles.

But I'll tell you Judge, keep your eyes open for trouble and keep that StarForce removal tool handy!
Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(
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