What's Important?

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 4:03 pm

Ha! There's nothing like marching into Mother Russia with your Panzer Corps while playing the German "Alte Kameraden" march on your computer's loudspeakers!

Stukas sweeping down the skies, obliterating all resistance within minutes. :p MG-34's cutting down Bolshevist infantry and 15 cm howitzers smashing command posts to pieces.

PS. I've sent you a mail.

Regards, Rundstedt

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 9:42 pm

Can anyone tell me the purpose of the German 2nd Army, positioned faaaar behind the front? Is it only there to refit worn down divisions, or what? Does it represent "The Home Army"?

And now to my my second question, of equal importance. Is it better to "shatter" enemy units or force them to surrender? Either way it seems to be a no-win situation for the enemy.

Regards, Rundstedt

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:12 pm

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
Can anyone tell me the purpose of the German 2nd Army, positioned faaaar behind the front? Is it only there to refit worn down divisions, or what? Does it represent "The Home Army"?

And now to my my second question, of equal importance. Is it better to "shatter" enemy units or force them to surrender? Either way it seems to be a no-win situation for the enemy.

Regards, Rundstedt

Going by memory here, but I believe that the 2nd army was a reserve army for the Germans. I am fairly sure it was added to AG Center and used to defend the southern flank toward Gomel in July or early August.

Forcing a surrender is overall a better solution than a shatter. However, you have very little control over what happens. A surrender causes the entire unit to be removed, whereas a shatter only permanently destroys a portion of the men and equipment in the unit (the manual says it is based on readiness but it isn't). Unfortunately, even surrounded units can shatter instead of surrendering as long as there are hexes to retreat to, but this can be considered semi-historical.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:21 pm

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
Can anyone tell me the purpose of the German 2nd Army, positioned faaaar behind the front? Is it only there to refit worn down divisions, or what? Does it represent "The Home Army"?

2nd army was reserve of OKH and was intended to protect northern flank of AGS. Use it as you wish. Your lines will quickly become overextended with large holes between shock groups. So, you will find the way to use 2nd army divisions.

And now to my my second question, of equal importance. Is it better to "shatter" enemy units or force them to surrender? Either way it seems to be a no-win situation for the enemy.

Generaly, it is better to make enemy to surrender because it loses everything "to your hands". Though manual says that shattered units are removed from the game but surrendered are recreated, it is wrong(!?) and shattered units will realy be recreated at reduced strength in Stavka.
You will also have a chance to shatter enemy's HQs. Use it carefully and remember that though shatter of HQ will have very strong effect if done in the begining of combat phase, AI cheats with the units inside of HQ and it can accidentaly become very strong and will not shatter. On the other hand, surrounded HQ on SL0 will not be able to move at all(!!!) because it can not plot. So you decide: fast effect with risk or ensured but slowed down lesser effect.

Regards, Rundstedt

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:28 pm

OK, got that!

By the way, when should I use "special supply" for my corps? I mean, how much should I allow the rate of readiness decrease in my divisions? I'm currently using special supply when my Panzer Korps fall to 80% readiness, and my infantry (non-mobile) divisions decreases to 70%.

Let's say I manage to hurt the Red Army badly during the summer-fall campaign in 1941, will the Soviets still be able to counter-attack in late 1941? Then I could cripple the Red Army and then wait for the bad weather to pass, and follow up with a new offensive in early 1942? Or will the Red Army receive reserves in such quantities that I won't be able to go through with my strategy no matter what?

Regards, Rundstedt

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 10:50 pm

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
OK, got that!

By the way, when should I use "special supply" for my corps? I mean, how much should I allow the rate of readiness decrease in my divisions? I'm currently using special supply when my Panzer Korps fall to 80% readiness, and my infantry (non-mobile) divisions decreases to 70%.

Higher is readiness the higher is cv of your troops. The primary goal is high combat value. special supply boosts readiness of your units by 5*SL points. So, if you have readiness 10 and will recieve 50 points of readiness vie special supply your unit will become 6 times stronger. If you have readiness 50 and recieve 50 more, you will become 2 times stronger. Remember that special supply is costy and you will be penalized for having less than 50 OPs during combat. Division takes 3 OPs for special supply, batalion takes 1. So, panzer division with 4 attached tank batalions will take 7. panzer korps of 3 such divisions and 4 auxiliary units will take 25 OPs.

Let's say I manage to hurt the Red Army badly during the summer-fall campaign in 1941, will the Soviets still be able to counter-attack in late 1941? Then I could cripple the Red Army and then wait for the bad weather to pass, and follow up with a new offensive in early 1942? Or will the Red Army receive reserves in such quantities that I won't be able to go through with my strategy no matter what?

If you play against AI you will surely win.
USSR gets huge reinforcements in 1941 because of total mobilization and still will be able to call up twice as many men than you in later years. Try to hurt Soviet production and resources. If you secure Leningrad-Moscow-Voronezh-Stalino line --- you have won. If not, prepare for big challenge in 1942. But AI is dumb anyway.

Regards, Rundstedt

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:34 pm

One other thing about readiness levels for everyone to keep in mind. Casualties are basically a function of readiness - in other words, readiness caps the potential losses from combat itself as unready men and equipment are not lost in each individual combat. There seem to be exceptions to this cap, but they may all be a result of a problem discussed in the next paragraph. This means when your opponent has control of the air he can smash your high readiness units and cause much higher casualties - in Mist's example they could run 6 times as high, although most likely the extra losses would be a smaller increase than the actual readiness increase.

However, there are situations where there are special adjustments to the combat value. Two that I know of are in the initial 1941 turns for the Soviets and in the 1941 and 1942 blizzards. In these cases the available squads and equipment are reduced by a very large percentage (1941 blizzard reduces German strength to 25% of what it would normally be). The problem is that casualties are still based on the pre-reduction strength while I believe the casualties are also directly subtracted from the post-reduction strength. This post-reduction strength is used for shatter checks, with shatter much more likely when the strength is extremely low. The result is that a high-readiness unit in this situation is much more likely to shatter than one that is left at low readiness because the full casualties are subtracted from the 25% of full unit strength, which can easily be 0. So unlike the expected results, avoid special supply as the Soviets in the early game turns and as Axis in the 1941 blizzard. I didn't know this until fairly recently, but it explains why the Soviets used to frequently shatter on me when I would use special supply to really boost them up during the initial blitzkrieg. I once had a 35-40 CV Soviet tank army at high entrenchment level and at high readiness shatter from much weaker Finnish attack forces (against neo-Hitler Don if he reads this) just to the north of Leningrad, and I am sure this is why as I boosted readiness using special supply.

Just a word of warning here on when to avoid using it.

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:39 pm

HELP! I've been using special supply on almost all my corps, and some of my Panzer Army HQ's have only got something like 20 OP's left!! This is NOT good, am I correct?

But, part of my question was, how much can I allow the readiness to drop before I should use special supply? F ex 60%, or perhaps 75%? This issue is extremely important, or so I've resently discovered!

Regards, Rundstedt

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:46 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:
One other thing about readiness levels for everyone to keep in mind. Casualties are basically a function of readiness - in other words, readiness caps the potential losses from combat itself as unready men and equipment are not lost in each individual combat. There seem to be exceptions to this cap, but they may all be a result of a problem discussed in the next paragraph. This means when your opponent has control of the air he can smash your high readiness units and cause much higher casualties - in Mist's example they could run 6 times as high, although most likely the extra losses would be a smaller increase than the actual readiness increase.

However, there are situations where there are special adjustments to the combat value. Two that I know of are in the initial 1941 turns for the Soviets and in the 1941 and 1942 blizzards. In these cases the available squads and equipment are reduced by a very large percentage (1941 blizzard reduces German strength to 25% of what it would normally be). The problem is that casualties are still based on the pre-reduction strength while I believe the casualties are also directly subtracted from the post-reduction strength. This post-reduction strength is used for shatter checks, with shatter much more likely when the strength is extremely low. The result is that a high-readiness unit in this situation is much more likely to shatter than one that is left at low readiness because the full casualties are subtracted from the 25% of full unit strength, which can easily be 0. So unlike the expected results, avoid special supply as the Soviets in the early game turns and as Axis in the 1941 blizzard. I didn't know this until fairly recently, but it explains why the Soviets used to frequently shatter on me when I would use special supply to really boost them up during the initial blitzkrieg. I once had a 35-40 CV Soviet tank army at high entrenchment level and at high readiness shatter from much weaker Finnish attack forces (against neo-Hitler Don if he reads this) just to the north of Leningrad, and I am sure this is why as I boosted readiness using special supply. Just a word of warning here on when to avoid using it.

But why the hell is "special supply" available in the game when it seems to me it does more harm than good!?

So you're saying I should only use "special supply" during clear weather when I'm on the offensive?

Regards, Rundstedt

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: Rundstedt ]

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:56 pm

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
HELP! I've been using special supply on almost all my corps, and some of my Panzer Army HQ's have only got something like 20 OP's left!! This is NOT good, am I correct?

But, part of my question was, how much can I allow the readiness to drop before I should use special supply? F ex 60%, or perhaps 75%? This issue is extremely important, or so I've resently discovered!

Regards, Rundstedt

Do not worry so much. It is not fatal for German during summer'41. Even with penalized readiness you will usualy be several time stronger than enemy. I've discovered this panalty only after several voctories(against AI). It becomes real problem if enemy has comparable strength with you. And it realy turns to hell when you are playing campaign'44 for Germans where they have several times weaker forces than Russians.

Again. Take care for CV of your units. 30-60 is ok for infantry korps in 1941, 90-150 is ok for panzer korps. Certanly, readiness below 50% is the thing to take care for. Don't forget about airlift supply. Hint#1: it works realy great for units with readiness below 50 and its effects are amazingly small for units with readiness 80+ despite of the same tonnage dropped. Hint#2: tonnage of supplies airlifted grows greatly with the number of transport planes participating in mission.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:01 am

Originally posted by Rundstedt:

But why the hell is "special supply" available in the game when it seems to me it does more harm than good!?

So you're saying I should only use "special supply" during clear weather when I'm on the offensive?

Regards, Rundstedt

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: Rundstedt ]

Special supply is too mighty thing. I'd prefer readiness bonus for units staying close enough to their HQs. But since it is available there are certain limitations for its use. Use it wisely. Not every time. Only in very special cases when you cant avoid it or you are sure it will not hurt you. You may use completely safely it at full strength during mud turns because almost any offensive is doomed to fail during mud.

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:17 am

Originally posted by RickyB:
One other thing about readiness levels for everyone to keep in mind. Casualties are basically a function of readiness - in other words, readiness caps the potential losses from combat itself as unready men and equipment are not lost in each individual combat. There seem to be exceptions to this cap, but they may all be a result of a problem discussed in the next paragraph. This means when your opponent has control of the air he can smash your high readiness units and cause much higher casualties - in Mist's example they could run 6 times as high, although most likely the extra losses would be a smaller increase than the actual readiness increase.

However, there are situations where there are special adjustments to the combat value. Two that I know of are in the initial 1941 turns for the Soviets and in the 1941 and 1942 blizzards. In these cases the available squads and equipment are reduced by a very large percentage (1941 blizzard reduces German strength to 25% of what it would normally be). The problem is that casualties are still based on the pre-reduction strength while I believe the casualties are also directly subtracted from the post-reduction strength. This post-reduction strength is used for shatter checks, with shatter much more likely when the strength is extremely low. The result is that a high-readiness unit in this situation is much more likely to shatter than one that is left at low readiness because the full casualties are subtracted from the 25% of full unit strength, which can easily be 0. So unlike the expected results, avoid special supply as the Soviets in the early game turns and as Axis in the 1941 blizzard. I didn't know this until fairly recently, but it explains why the Soviets used to frequently shatter on me when I would use special supply to really boost them up during the initial blitzkrieg. I once had a 35-40 CV Soviet tank army at high entrenchment level and at high readiness shatter from much weaker Finnish attack forces (against neo-Hitler Don if he reads this) just to the north of Leningrad, and I am sure this is why as I boosted readiness using special supply. Just a word of warning here on when to avoid using it.

Ahem... That's Mr. neo-Hitler Don to you. Of course, I had struck that unit with repeated interdiction attacks from 3 different HQ's before the attack. That was always a favorite tactic from the old 1.1x version, you could interdict with each squadron with the results being reduced readiness with each attack.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:41 am

Originally posted by Don Shafer:

Ahem... That's Mr. neo-Hitler Don to you. Of course, I had struck that unit with repeated interdiction attacks from 3 different HQ's before the attack. That was always a favorite tactic from the old 1.1x version, you could interdict with each squadron with the results being reduced readiness with each attack.

Sorry Mr. Don (Ho that is)

. I always blamed it on general circumstances such as pre-attack bombing, but based on Arnaud's comments and that shattering is almost for sure more common after special supply is provided, I think it contributed. Especially since in 1.13x and earlier you could do multiple special supplies, which I am fairly sure I did in the case of this disaster. Any maybe I was just a very poor motivator of mother Russia's manpower.

Or maybe you were just such a superb motivator of the neo-Nazi Finnish hordes threatening Leningrad from the North.

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: RickyB ]

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:52 am

Are you saying the Finns were all Nazis??? :rolleyes: Most of them just wanted to "protect" their homeland, and at the same time recapture lost territory... Well, OK, and perhaps grab a big chunk of north-western Russia too...

Regards, Rundstedt

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:59 am

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
Are you saying the Finns were all Nazis??? :rolleyes: Most of them just wanted to "protect" their homeland, and at the same time recapture lost territory... Well, OK, and perhaps grab a big chunk of north-western Russia too...

Regards, Rundstedt

Nope, just the Mr. neo-Hitler Don (Ho) led WIR version Finns that stormed into Leningrad, sacking it and destroying the city for the rest of the game. However, they got their just rewards in the game. They never did make a step to the south or east of Leningrad, so their plans for lebensraum ended up a disaster in this case.

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Thu Jul 26, 2001 8:41 pm

For which Mannerheim was rewarded with a parade in downtown Berlin and the Oak Leaves of the Knight's Cross. Several congratulatory toasts of Schnapps were consumed during dinner.

Originally posted by RickyB:

Nope, just the Mr. neo-Hitler Don (Ho) led WIR version Finns that stormed into Leningrad, sacking it and destroying the city for the rest of the game. However, they got their just rewards in the game. They never did make a step to the south or east of Leningrad, so their plans for lebensraum ended up a disaster in this case.