I don't like being the "bad guys"...

[Brady]

When I was younger I almost always played the Axis side in games,Largely because of points made above, I was facinated by their equipment, secondaly because in some cases I felt that playing a side that lost or that was suffering from some disavantage was the more chalanging side to play, the allies after all wone the war, so in this regard it was semingly the more honarable side to play  when chusing up side's, I would offer to play the Axis.
 
   As time has moved on, over 20 years now playing War Games, and over 30 years now reading about military History, my focuse has moved around, from German studies, to Italian, to Japanese, to British/Comenwealth, and of course US history, I would still largely chuse some side other than the US to play, but realy the chalange is in the game and the process, and the game is an otlet for me, an extenshion of the learning process, so in the end it does not realy matter what side I play.
 
 
  One of the best things about COTA is that it opens up a theater and a time that has been little explored in the past, and does so in a spectaularly well done manner, Having Greek, New Zeland and Austrailian Forces represened in such a manner is very Cool to play with, not mention the Italians, a long time want of mine in a game.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Grouchy
After meeting Ray, hearing his stories about his time in the army playing with 25pdrs, I always imagine Ray manning one of those allied 25pdr bty's.

That's great Grouchy. Now when I'm playing the Germans I'll pay particular attention to those Brit 25pdr units. Better tell Ray to bring his hard hat. [;)]

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: Grouchy
In the begin I had problems playing the bad guys.
After meeting Ray, hearing his stories about his time in the army playing with 25pdrs, I always imagine Ray manning one of those allied 25pdr bty's.

Ah, but I never mentioned who owned the guns I was playing with ... have you never heard of armies using captured equipment?

My dearest wish is to fight against the Netherland Army, trouble is, it won't stand still long enough ... bit like the Belgian Air Force. [:'(] Mind you, the Dutch navy has given Britain a bit of bother in the past!
Ray

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe
My dearest wish is to fight against the Netherland Army, trouble is, it won't stand still long enough ...

They keep advancing on your positions - right ? [;)]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe
bit like the Belgian Air Force.

Typo - that should be Belgian Air Farce [;)]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe
Mind you, the Dutch navy has given Britain a bit of bother in the past!

For those unfamiliar with British understatements : "A bit of bother" = "defeating the British navy" in both the second and the third Anglo-Dutch wars".

Only after the Dutch successfully invaded and conquered Britain - see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution and incorporated their fleet into the Royal Navy did Britain become a sea power.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Kung Karl]

If it helps anyone to play the Axis, the allies did commit warcrimes and murder during the war. The allied won the war though so it was ok for them to be war criminals. If the Axis had won they had been the good guys, simple as that. In war there are no good and bad sides, only humans who on both sides commits horrific things to achive victory. It all depends on how you look at it.

The same soldiers you say is the bad guys is the same soldiers who tried to free the world from communism just like USA was/are doing after the war. In that respect they were defenders of the western civlization. If you want to look at it that way that is.

What I am trying to do here is show how you can twist and turn the matter to justify who you play.

In the end though, it is only a wargame. Play to have fun, not to make an political stand.

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

For those unfamiliar with British understatements : "A bit of bother" = "defeating the British navy" in both the second and the third Anglo-Dutch wars".

No,no,no! What happened was that we really like the Dutch* (well only the people from Holland, actually) and therefor we didn't want to hurt them. Soooo, we let them think they had won when we advanced in the opposite direction.
Cheers
Ray
* How could you dislike people who encourage their little boys to put their fingers into dykes?

[cantona]

ORIGINAL: Vince_Tooket

German was our ennemy. But WWII was essentially a political war. Since all Germans are not nazi during this war and they have a long tradition of the war spirit, they do their orders without any regard of political decision. If we can contest the objectives of some scenario, some soldiers may have to do too. But, one interrest of wargame is to take the role of a commander. So what if you are German warrior, not necessarly convicted nazi, but you are in army and you intend to play you part in this war. If you have the military spirit you don't care if political decision is good or bad. The wermacht have always respected the rules of war and the teutonic knight's spirit. Like wargame don't simulate crime against humanity, there is no particular reason to not play as german. I don't think in war there is good and bad guy, all are bad guy but they have no choice. The bad guy are in the command or in the chain of the command.
But... The SchuztStafell (SS) due to their political endoctrination, can be considered all bad guy. I can understand that we have a dislike to play with this ****ng *****rds. But one more time we play a wargame with no political consideration, so SS are elite troops and have a part of elite troops in task force give some particular strategy. If some guys want to give a political aspect of WWII wargames, we can't prevent that but I think this a twist of the wargame spirit.
I like to play german for only one reason, their organisation and equipment allow deeper tactics.

history, the history of the third reich, the history of the SS, hence the differentiation between waffen and allegaimane ss would be apparent, arnt your strong points are they!

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

For those unfamiliar with British understatements : "A bit of bother" = "defeating the British navy" in both the second and the third Anglo-Dutch wars".

No,no,no! What happened was that we really like the Dutch* (well only the people from Holland, actually)

Oooh - Grouchy will love this one [:D]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe
* How could you dislike people who encourage their little boys to put their fingers into dykes?

"Finger" is the non X-rated version of what *really* happened [:D]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
No,no,no! What happened was that we really like the Dutch* (well only the people from Holland, actually)

Oooh - Grouchy will love this one [:D]
[/quote]
I had hoped he would. [;)]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe
* How could you dislike people who encourage their little boys to put their fingers into dykes?

"Finger" is the non X-rated version of what *really* happened [:D]

Damn. Have I got it wrong again? [:-]
Cheers
Ray

PS as you can see the nested quotes have got the better of me again.

[Vince_Tooket]

ORIGINAL: cantona

history, the history of the third reich, the history of the SS, hence the differentiation between waffen and allegaimane ss would be apparent, arnt your strong points are they!

Waffen SS have kill in many occasion civilians. ie: Stavelot (Belgium) ( Recon Bn of 1st SS Panzerdivision ), Ouradour sur glane and Tulle (france) ( 2nd SS Panzerdivision ). They have done this to retaliate against partisan ( Tulle, Ouradour ) or when they have been defeated ( Stavelot ). In East front there are a lot of example when Waffen SS did that for they was made.

[Grouchy]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

No,no,no! What happened was that we really like the Dutch* (well only the people from Holland, actually) and therefor we didn't want to hurt them.

Ahhaaa that may be the reason the rest of the United Provinces of the Netherlands felt somewhat neglected and decided to go for a little boattrip to Chatham.

* How could you dislike people who encourage their little boys to put their fingers into dykes?

Ooh dear, i fear Ray's old Crimean's war headwound is acting up again.
Ray, you may not like those Dutch people anymore as I am going to tell you a secret. This is from a fictinal children's book written by Mary Dodge from New York, US (You know the people you liked so much some 100 years later (well only the loyalists, actually) and therefore didn't want to hurt them either.[:'(]

[cantona]

ORIGINAL: Vince_Tooket

ORIGINAL: cantona

history, the history of the third reich, the history of the SS, hence the differentiation between waffen and allegaimane ss would be apparent, arnt your strong points are they!

Waffen SS have kill in many occasion civilians. ie: Stavelot (Belgium) ( Recon Bn of 1st SS Panzerdivision ), Ouradour sur glane and Tulle (france) ( 2nd SS Panzerdivision ). They have done this to retaliate against partisan ( Tulle, Ouradour ) or when they have been defeated ( Stavelot ). In East front there are a lot of example when Waffen SS did that for they was made.

agreed but your statement impies that ALL ss members are guilty of attrocities and of being "bad guys". indeed there are also accounts from the allied side of attrocities being carrried out. in no way am i defending attrocities carreid out by the ss and to the ones you mention you can add lidice, reprisal for the assassination of reinhard heydrich for example, but such blanket statements as the one you mentioned are grossly incorrect

anyway in terms of gameplay, which was the original question and i diverted from lol, ss units usually make great additions to your arsenal, take TAOW they have high proficieny and good levels of supply, so id use them without batting an eyelid

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: Grouchy
Ooh dear, i fear Ray's old Crimean's war headwound is acting up again.
Ray, you may not like those Dutch people anymore as I am going to tell you a secret. This is from a fictinal children's book written by Mary Dodge from New York, US (You know the people you liked so much some 100 years later (well only the loyalists, actually) and therefore didn't want to hurt them either.[:'(]

So there you have it. We Brits really like everyone and don't want to hurt anybody. Gosh, we're so nice; I'm embarrassed at our niceness. [:'(]

So to get back on topic (probably not wise), I don't like playing any side, lest I should hurt someone. So I just sit and stare at the beauty of the maps.
Ray

[Vince_Tooket]

ORIGINAL: cantona

anyway in terms of gameplay, which was the original question and i diverted from lol, ss units usually make great additions to your arsenal, take TAOW they have high proficieny and good levels of supply, so id use them without batting an eyelid

There was some elite Panzerdivsions in the wermacht, Panzer Lehr and 2nd Panzerdivision in example. If the SS gets priority to wermacht in terms of supply and eventually equipment, principally heavy armors and half-tracks, elite panzers comes next and had nothing to envy for the supply.

[cantona]

ORIGINAL: Vince_Tooket

ORIGINAL: cantona

anyway in terms of gameplay, which was the original question and i diverted from lol, ss units usually make great additions to your arsenal, take TAOW they have high proficieny and good levels of supply, so id use them without batting an eyelid

There was some elite Panzerdivsions in the wermacht, Panzer Lehr and 2nd Panzerdivision in example. If the SS gets priority to wermacht in terms of supply and eventually equipment, principally heavy armors and half-tracks, elite panzers comes next and had nothing to envy for the supply.

you can add grossdeutchsland to that list of yours. at the end of the day its just a game and like in all games you use all the tools possible to win

[JudgeDredd]

I, on the other hand, only play as Germans!!

[Vince_Tooket]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I, on the other hand, only play as Germans!!

Play them all. Defeat great country with poor material is fun too.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Grouchy

In the begin I had problems playing the bad guys.
After meeting Ray, hearing his stories about his time in the army playing with 25pdrs, I always imagine Ray manning one of those allied 25pdr bty's.

I can tell you this guys....I'am having mucho fun now playing the bad guys [:'(]

Hmm....this post reminded me of one of my pet peeves regarding this game series. While it may be acceptable to use the decidedly British categorization of guns by "pounders", it is infuriating to see the same terminology applied to American equipment. Americans didn't use antiquated medieval terminology to categorize their guns. Every time I gave an order to an American anti-tank platoon in the Nijmegan scenario of HTTR I cringed at the reference to them as "pounders" in the equipment listing. It's as bad as watching a 1960's era WWII movie using Patton tanks as tigers. Grognards care about correct depictions of the equipment!

[Fred98]

I prefer to play which ever side was generally on the attack at the time. The attacking side generally has more flexibility and can control the pace and flow of the game.
 
Afterwards I'll try the other side.
 
 

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Hmm....this post reminded me of one of my pet peeves regarding this game series. While it may be acceptable to use the decidedly British categorization of guns by "pounders", it is infuriating to see the same terminology applied to American equipment. Americans didn't use antiquated medieval terminology to categorize their guns. Every time I gave an order to an American anti-tank platoon in the Nijmegan scenario of HTTR I cringed at the reference to them as "pounders" in the equipment listing. It's as bad as watching a 1960's era WWII movie using Patton tanks as tigers. Grognards care about correct depictions of the equipment!

Hans,

I have raised this issue with the West Front DDT. Hopefully we'll be refering to American 105mm howitzers in BFTB. [:)]