The historical test

From the creators of Crown of Glory come an epic tale of North Vs. South. By combining area movement on the grand scale with optional hex based tactical battles when they occur, Forge of Freedom provides something for every strategy gamer. Control economic development, political development with governers and foreign nations, and use your military to win the bloodiest war in US history.

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Erik Rutins
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RE: The historical test

Post by Erik Rutins »

von Beanie,
ORIGINAL: von Beanie
If it takes "faster sieges" to recreate what actually happened in history, why isn't that listed as a "normal siege," and then an option provided for "slower sieges"?

If one has to radically change the "default" settings to recreate history, then something is wrong. The default settings should be what recreates the actual imbalance of power, and the victory conditions should be based realistically on that lopsided balance of power. Then, the game could offer the alternatives for a "balanced" game, with victory conditions altered accordingly.

The designers have stated from the beginning that the default balance was set to make for a more challenging, balanced game. The options were then provided so that you or anyone could tailor the game to your liking. All I did was look through the appendix, decide which options I needed to change to come closer to what was requested here, and give it a try. I think over time, once more people get used to the game, certain combinations of options will become "preferred" for either more historical players or folks who want a faster game, etc.

I'm not saying that Faster Sieges = History, but I'm going to try it and see. I think I could have done fine with the default sieges had I made fewer mistakes, but I'm not an expert FoF player like Hard Sarge. Since my son was born right as the final three months of testing started, I was on leave for that period and didn't have much chance to play until after the game was released. I'm approaching it as a player and with knowledge from alpha testing and the results seem to be pretty good to me.
If victory matters (such as on theblitz.org website), who would start a PBEM game as the CSA with such radically altered conditions just so that they could recreate the actual war (keeping in mind that the victory conditions are not based on the radically altered settings)? And it is my opinion that many, if not most, players would prefer to play a game that is historically realistic.

Well, I don't know again that this is the perfect combination, but I'm trying it out to see. Feel free to give other combinations a try to see if they suit better. In all honesty, I'm of the school of thought that the historical CSA did about as well as could be expected given the odds against it once full war started. Although wargamers always want to do better, I'm guessing for PBEM putting the settings a bit more towards "balance" rather than "strict history" would be more fun, particularly for the CSA player.
Lots of wargames produced in the boardgame era reflected campaigns with a major imbalance of power or quality. These games weren't altered by giving the weaker side lots of abilities, units or economic options that they didn't have historically. Rather, the victory conditions were altered to reflect the real situation, and mostly based on the player doing better than each side did historically.

Can you imagine a game on the 1941 Barbarossa campaign where the default scenario gives Russians stronger units or enhanced powers so that they could stop the German invasion on the border and even invade Rumania? One could argue that it's based on WWII, but is it really? That's what happens when a game alters the forces or economic options rather than the victory conditions. Unfortunately, that's what appears to have happened with FoF in my opinion, and that's why some are challenging the game's "default" scenarios and options.

I'm fine with challenging the default settings, but you have to understand that the default settings were always provided with a balanced game in mind. The options were provided so that other kinds of games would be possible.

I take your point about balancing victory conditions around the "painfully realistic" scenario, so that your goal as the South would be to simply do a bit better than the historical. Honestly though, most players if they went through what the South did would probably throw in the towel in 1863 and ask for a re-match. While Lee was doing fine in Virginia, the Union was pretty much stomping them elsewhere.

Anyway, we're all reading this board and will discuss to see if we can provide some additional pre-sets or other advice on this.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: The historical test

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Like to add my thanks as well. Hopefully there will be an "historical" scenario in the game as well one of these days. And again, when you get a moment, could you give us the exact settings you were using in yout "test"?

Well, as far as scenarios I think you'll like the updated one better, but what I really did was change the in-game options, which you can do yourself to adjust any scenario and game experience all the way from "simple" to "complex" and "realistic" to "fantasy". I don't really think in terms of historical scenarios as a result since each scenario can be adjusted to that degree. However, the updated July 1861 scenario I was playing with does improve on the General deployments and entry dates and also removes the CSA navy, among other things, so I'm sure it will prove popular.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: The historical test

Post by Erik Rutins »

I forgot to add that I was playing on "Sergeant" difficult, so that there would be no economic modifiers.
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RE: The historical test

Post by rook749 »

Erik,

Thanks for taking the time to address some of the concerns for those of us in the historical camp.

Love the game.

Rook
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RE: The historical test

Post by von Beanie »

Eric,
 
I believe your responses to my criticisms are fair. Thank you for taking time to address them.
 
Norm
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RE: The historical test

Post by Nick R »

Eric,
 
Thanks for the feedback and all the hard work!
 
Nick
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RE: The historical test

Post by Queeg »

Thanks here, too.

I set out to do the same thing myself, but real life intervened. Nice to see that the setting really do make a difference. I've been convinced we'd find more game here once we explored the settings. Thanks for taking on the task.
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RE: The historical test

Post by Erik Rutins »

Ok, the second test went even better than the first. Kentucky went with the Union this time and I also decided not to send an expedition to New Orleans (personal preference, I proved I had the troops to do it last game, but I preferred a different strategy this time). Instead, I sent those troops into Kentucky and Tennessee.

Once again, I got up over 400k in actual troops recruited, probably around 500k counting replacements and more if you count garrisons. It's hard to keep the effective strength up much higher than 300-350k though, but I can feel things starting to accelerate for the Union already by June 1862. I think with this kind of preparation, any areas that are slightly behind will catch up over the course of 1862.

After using musters to fill out my armies for the first nine months or so, I started putting more effort into also building infantry, which would probably be more frequent in 1862/63 as the Union economy continues to grow.

I had the whole Eastern seaboard blockaded, all Confederate ports had at least one Union fleet with 3+ ship squadrons, in addition to an understrength fleet blockading New Orleans. More ships in production.

I besieged and took Memphis, Fort Donelson, Fort Henry and Nashville. Currently besieging Fort Pickering (Murfreesboro) which is going to fall next turn. About to besiege Chattanooga. I fully expect to own Tennessee by the end of the 1862 campaigning season, barring a major intervention from the CSA (will keep you posted). I have one Army with Two Corps and Six Divisions under Thomas in Tennessee, along with another Corps of Three Divisions under Banks in Tennessee and a Corps with Three Divisions under Pope near Memphis. Also a separate Division in Cairo and a Corps of Two Divisions under Lyons in the Ozarks.

After pausing to manage unrest and resupply, my forces are also in Arkansas and planning to head south along the Mississippi from Memphis. Some impressments gone wrong also caused me to have to divert a division to quell unrest behind my lines.

Although I won First Bull Run and held Fredericksburg for a while, I did withdraw to Maryland to rebuild and reorganize the AoP. The CSA left Fredericksburg alone and in Spring of 1862 I marched right back in. Much to my surprise, the CSA attacked me with the armies it had been building and managed to beat me, throwing me back to Maryland. They now own Fredericksburg again and have started a fort there. So, while progress in the west is good, Virginia seems to be at a bit of a stalemate, which is also good to see from a historical perspective. I have about 110k field troops in Annapolis after my defeat, in addition to significant garrison forces. Those are organized in an Army of Two Corps and Six Divisions under Rosencrans and a separate Corps of Three Divisions under McClellan. The CSA is reported as having about 103k in Fredericksburg.

I have two artillery brigades and four siege artillery brigades, as well as one cavalry brigade. A bunch more cavalry is in production.

CSA raiders are harassing me in Kentucky and causing chaos as well. The CSA opponent is definitely putting up a better fight overall with the Power +0 setting I decided to go with for the CSA.

Here are the changes I made to my previous settings:

Confederate Power +0 (Union Power stays at +3)
Faster Sieges ON (Up to June 1862, based on my testing I would recommend this option)

Please give these recommendations a try and let me know how they work for you. Remember I'm playing with the beta update and an updated July 1861 scenario, so our results may differ a bit until you get the next update, but this should still help.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: The historical test

Post by Twotribes »

Why is it that when the Union attacks into Fredricksberg and loses it retreats to Fort Monroe, sealing it off from further retreat and supply? It has happened to me everry time I have attacked into Fredricksburg and lost AND others have reported the same results.
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RE: The historical test

Post by Ironclad »

Apparently this is being corrected in the new patch to be issued.
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RE: The historical test

Post by Erik Rutins »

Twotribes,

Yes, that was a bug that is corrected in the beta patch I'm playing, which is why in my case it retreated back to Maryland.

Regards,

- Erik
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RE: The historical test

Post by Feltan »

Erik,

I used those settings as a test a while ago. With the current early 1861 scenario I was able to win as the Union.

What concerned be somewhat, is that when I switched sides, the South as human player was able to kick the Union's butt without much of a problem on the same settings.

Have you tried these setting playing as the South?

I suspect that while the settings are important, and I agree with you that they are, the tipping point might be the new beta scenario you are testing/playing.

Regards,
Feltan
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RE: The historical test

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Why is it that when the Union attacks into Fredricksberg and loses it retreats to Fort Monroe, sealing it off from further retreat and supply? It has happened to me everry time I have attacked into Fredricksburg and lost AND others have reported the same results.


That's because Fortress Monroe is in the wrong place and not considered a port. IRL it was the support/covering base for all Union moves against Richmond made from the Penninsula, as it could be re-supplied and reinforced from the sea. The game has it stuck off in the countryside and isolated from turn one.
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RE: The historical test

Post by rook749 »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Erik,

I used those settings as a test a while ago. With the current early 1861 scenario I was able to win as the Union.

What concerned be somewhat, is that when I switched sides, the South as human player was able to kick the Union's butt without much of a problem on the same settings.

Have you tried these setting playing as the South?

I suspect that while the settings are important, and I agree with you that they are, the tipping point might be the new beta scenario you are testing/playing.

Regards,
Feltan
I agree the retreat changes as well as the new scenario will help resolve a lot of the current issues.

I also wanted to make two quick observations on things that seem to hamper the AI.

* Containers – its seems that in a lot of games the AI was not building any containers but after watching it closely for several games it seems that AI always builds Division containers, sometimes Corps Containers and almost never Army containers (have seen the Union build one but never the CSA). I think this might be a barracks building issue with the AI and not a container building problem. What does everyone else think, or am I just out in left field?

* Forts – the AI could use some tweaking on when/where to build forts. In every game I have played as the CSA – when the Union takes Fredericksburg it will at some point march south without leaving either a fort or a division to hold its lines of retreat and can easily have the army cut off and destroyed. While it never builds a fort in the Shenandoah or Fredericksburg to keep its lines of supply open it will build tons of forts else where to protect its territory rather than advancing. I think the Union AI would do much better if it built less forts (saving money and resources) but built them in more key areas.

Rook

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RE: The historical test

Post by jimwinsor »

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Why is it that when the Union attacks into Fredricksberg and loses it retreats to Fort Monroe, sealing it off from further retreat and supply? It has happened to me everry time I have attacked into Fredricksburg and lost AND others have reported the same results.


That's because Fortress Monroe is in the wrong place and not considered a port. IRL it was the support/covering base for all Union moves against Richmond made from the Penninsula, as it could be re-supplied and reinforced from the sea. The game has it stuck off in the countryside and isolated from turn one.

The position of forts in a province is an aesthetic issue only. Even if Ft. Monroe was graphically located on the coast, it would not have impacted the supply situation of any army in the province. Forts, by design, don't do that sort of thing.

And even if a fort were considered a port...even that would not have mattered in the area of supply. IIRC, Sea Supply works the same for all coastal provinces, port or no port.
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RE: The historical test

Post by spruce »

thread hi-jack = I'm planning to start a new game this evening ... is the new patch due today or not ?
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RE: The historical test

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor
The position of forts in a province is an aesthetic issue only. Even if Ft. Monroe was graphically located on the coast, it would not have impacted the supply situation of any army in the province. Forts, by design, don't do that sort of thing.

And even if a fort were considered a port...even that would not have mattered in the area of supply. IIRC, Sea Supply works the same for all coastal provinces, port or no port.



That's basically my complaint Jim. There was exactly ONE DAY during the entire ACW when the South had any chance of impacting the flow of troops, supplies, or anything else in and out of Fortress Monroe. That was the Virginia's "one brief shining hour" before the Monitor arrived. In the game it's just an unsupported fort in the middle of nowhere instead of the base which made McClellan's Penninsula "follies" possible. It's like the Eads Shipyard (where the Union's first river ironclad were built)not being present in St. Louis..., or the Forts of New York all being missing. Historical problems that can't be corrected with a +2 here and a -1 there, because they are built into the system.
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RE: The historical test

Post by Icelandair »

About the positioning of the fort, what about a few new provinces in VA?  You could split Fredericksburg into the Wilderness maybe in the south and Manassas in the North?  It seems strange that the whole VA theater of operations is consolidated into one hex.
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RE: The historical test

Post by regularbird »

The Fred province most definately needs broken into 2.
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RE: The historical test

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Icelandair

About the positioning of the fort, what about a few new provinces in VA?  You could split Fredericksburg into the Wilderness maybe in the south and Manassas in the North?  It seems strange that the whole VA theater of operations is consolidated into one hex.


The map certainly isn't drawn the way I would have done it either..., but I don't know if there is any chance of changes in that area.
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