Manila or Pearl-new paradigm?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Cyber Me

An additional benefit of the Manila strike opening move for Japan would be that their diplomats would have delivered the declaration of war documents to the US government before the actual attack occurred. So they wouldn't have stirred so much hatred from their historical screw-up. Therefore Allied determination for unconditional surrender of Japan would not have had as much a following. So anytime in 1942 that the Japs get double the Allied VPs they should win a auto victory.

That is guaranteed with a competent IJ player.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Cyber Me

An additional benefit of the Manila strike opening move for Japan would be that their diplomats would have delivered the declaration of war documents to the US government before the actual attack occurred. So they wouldn't have stirred so much hatred from their historical screw-up. Therefore Allied determination for unconditional surrender of Japan would not have had as much a following. So anytime in 1942 that the Japs get double the Allied VPs they should win a auto victory.

That is guaranteed with a competent IJ player.

I had a three to one over witpqs at one point in 1942 and he is no slouch when it comes to WitP.

[Cyber Me]

I'm just saying that the Japanese failure to make the "official" declaration of war on the US before their attack at Pearl Harbour was an incredible error by them and a continuing source of inspiration for the Allies to want revenge and sustain some early set backs. If the KB attacked Manila then the DoW would have been presented in a more timely manner, folowing the rules of war a bit more closely. Just like the Japs thought the war would go like. Capture the SRA, grab a few bases, defend against a couple of weak counter-attacks- and whacko- war won!

[bradfordkay]

Personally, I think that the American public would have been just as mad if the declaration of war had preceded the PH attack by an hour, the way that the Japanese planned. A declaration of war and then a nearly immediate attack on Manila would likely have raised our ire as well. Both would show that the Japanese were actually starting their offensive moves while still "negotiating" for peace... 

[Lomri]

Has anyone tried the Manila first move and played into "good torp season" to comment on how they feel the game is going?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Has anyone tried the Manila first move and played into "good torp season" to comment on how they feel the game is going?

Good question. I'm in June 1942 in my most advanced PBEM. Too early to get the Mk 14s fixed, thank goodness.

[Ketza]

I recently started a game as the allies and had an opponent use the Manilla strategy. Typically in the past my overall allied strategy was to try and hold Java/Sumatra in strength for as long as possible to attrition Japan and because people had always attacked PH this always worked to an extent.

This time with the Manilla strat being used I found myself unable to mount any semblance of a cohesive defence as the KB totally unhinged allied positions and staging in the area. This allowed an early Japanese landing on Java before the end of December. This of course leads to the staging of Nettie/Zero nests and at that point the KB is free to cause damage somewhere else.

This is how I have played as Japan in most of my games and I will tell you there is no defense against this type of opening move that I am aware of. The only silver lining for an allied player is it gives you a small window for "maybe" 3-4 weeks in the Central Pacific to take some offensive action but after that the KB can show back up at any moment. In the end the Manilla strat can shave a month or more off your SRA time table as well as save you a lot of potential naval losses.

So there are some theatre wide strategic aspects to the manilla move to consider other then just knocking out the subs and us bases in the PI early.

[Chickenboy]

DUDE....Ex nae on the alking-tae. Is an ecret-sae, OK? [;)]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

DUDE....Ex nae on the alking-tae. Is an ecret-sae, OK? [;)]

Don't worry....I won't tell a soul![:D]

[AcePylut]

My subs from Manila have been a pita for my opponent.  They are getting 2-3 hits on ships per turn (with historical torps "on".  This 2-3 hits is happening on top of all the duds).

So far, I've knocked out 2 Jap bb's for a while, sunk a couple CA's.  Put a torp into the Hiryu for a "critical hit" (and fow shows it sinking.  I have my fingers crosses).

It's Feb '42, and my active "front lines defense" strategy has forced my opponent to move a lot of asw assets forward, burning all that fuel he's getting faster due to a quick conquest of the DEI.
 
So now I've switched my long-range fleet boats to convoy interception, and will try to force him to spend fuel moving asw assets back "home".
 
In parallell, had my bb's "not" been attacked at PH, they'd MAYBE have bombarded a base or two, by now.

[John 3rd]

I cannot believe that this Thread is still going!

I'm seriously toying with an all-Manila Strike with the KB for my re-opening of the RA Mod, Mark Two soon. Perhaps this discussion could be had with an active AAR occurring to document the potential good and bad of this decision.

Makes sense to create an 'experiment' that is highly visible and see what the planned and unintended consequences end up being...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I cannot believe that this Thread is still going!

I'm seriously toying with an all-Manila Strike with the KB for my re-opening of the RA Mod, Mark Two soon. Perhaps this discussion could be had with an active AAR occurring to document the potential good and bad of this decision.

Makes sense to create an 'experiment' that is highly visible and see what the planned and unintended consequences end up being...

We'll let you know in a couple of weeks. CB and I are doing one now. (Turn 3).

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I cannot believe that this Thread is still going!

I'm seriously toying with an all-Manila Strike with the KB for my re-opening of the RA Mod, Mark Two soon. Perhaps this discussion could be had with an active AAR occurring to document the potential good and bad of this decision.

Makes sense to create an 'experiment' that is highly visible and see what the planned and unintended consequences end up being...

Ask Blitzk about his experience. He's doing an AAR.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I cannot believe that this Thread is still going!

I'm seriously toying with an all-Manila Strike with the KB for my re-opening of the RA Mod, Mark Two soon. Perhaps this discussion could be had with an active AAR occurring to document the potential good and bad of this decision.

Makes sense to create an 'experiment' that is highly visible and see what the planned and unintended consequences end up being...

We'll let you know in a couple of weeks. CB and I are doing one now. (Turn 3).

In this PBEM, you can see the list of ships sunk on December 8 and 9 on the AAR (Liquidating the gaijin) and judge for yourselves the initial impact of this decision.

Long-term implications will inevitably be delayed, as the Pearl BBs have not made themselves known, nor have the long-term benefits of destroying the Allied submarine fleet at Manila.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I cannot believe that this Thread is still going!

I'm seriously toying with an all-Manila Strike with the KB for my re-opening of the RA Mod, Mark Two soon. Perhaps this discussion could be had with an active AAR occurring to document the potential good and bad of this decision.

Makes sense to create an 'experiment' that is highly visible and see what the planned and unintended consequences end up being...

We'll let you know in a couple of weeks. CB and I are doing one now. (Turn 3).

In this PBEM, you can see the list of ships sunk on December 8 and 9 on the AAR (Liquidating the gaijin) and judge for yourselves the initial impact of this decision.

Long-term implications will inevitably be delayed, as the Pearl BBs have not made themselves known, nor have the long-term benefits of destroying the Allied submarine fleet at Manila.

Destroying submarine fleet? That's a little harsh. Crippling would be a better term. You sank 2/3s. You severely damaged a "fleet" that in real life had already been written off.I'll miss the tenders and mine craft more than anything else. And spared ALL of my BB's,CA's and CL's,DD's,SS's and aux's at PH, not to mention all those airframes,pilots, the fuel farm and machine shops. I'd say that while you sped up the conquest of the PI and DEI, you also sped up the return of the US fleet, AKA "War Plan Orange".

You'll be hearing from those BB's,CA's and carriers real soon. [:D]

Consider this; the USN unleashed it's submarines on Dec 8, because, besides it's carrier force, it was all it had. Well, I still have 1/2 my subs,all of my carriers, and a whole lot more of options.

Also consider this: you haven't sunk a single warship larger than a destroyer.You haven't even damaged one.

It will be very informative to see how this plays out. I believe that you see your attack as delaying the return of allied forces for six months to a year. I see it as speeding up the return for the same amount of time.

Time will tell. [:D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve




We'll let you know in a couple of weeks. CB and I are doing one now. (Turn 3).

In this PBEM, you can see the list of ships sunk on December 8 and 9 on the AAR (Liquidating the gaijin) and judge for yourselves the initial impact of this decision.

Long-term implications will inevitably be delayed, as the Pearl BBs have not made themselves known, nor have the long-term benefits of destroying the Allied submarine fleet at Manila.

Destroying submarine fleet? That's a little harsh. Crippling would be a better term. You sank 2/3s. You severely damaged a "fleet" that in real life had already been written off.I'll miss the tenders and mine craft more than anything else. And spared ALL of my BB's,CA's and CL's,DD's,SS's and aux's at PH, not to mention all those airframes,pilots, the fuel farm and machine shops. I'd say that while you sped up the conquest of the PI and DEI, you also sped up the return of the US fleet, AKA "War Plan Orange".

You'll be hearing from those BB's,CA's and carriers real soon. [:D]

Consider this; the USN unleashed it's submarines on Dec 8, because, besides it's carrier force, it was all it had. Well, I still have 1/2 my subs,all of my carriers, and a whole lot more of options.

Also consider this: you haven't sunk a single warship larger than a destroyer.You haven't even damaged one.

It will be very informative to see how this plays out. I believe that you see your attack as delaying the return of allied forces for six months to a year. I see it as speeding up the return for the same amount of time.

Time will tell. [:D]

When I play this scenario, I also give the Allies two less years to win--assuming that the war remains limited.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve





We'll let you know in a couple of weeks. CB and I are doing one now. (Turn 3).

In this PBEM, you can see the list of ships sunk on December 8 and 9 on the AAR (Liquidating the gaijin) and judge for yourselves the initial impact of this decision.

Long-term implications will inevitably be delayed, as the Pearl BBs have not made themselves known, nor have the long-term benefits of destroying the Allied submarine fleet at Manila.

Destroying submarine fleet? That's a little harsh. Crippling would be a better term. You sank 2/3s. You severely damaged a "fleet" that in real life had already been written off.I'll miss the tenders and mine craft more than anything else. And spared ALL of my BB's,CA's and CL's,DD's,SS's and aux's at PH, not to mention all those airframes,pilots, the fuel farm and machine shops. I'd say that while you sped up the conquest of the PI and DEI, you also sped up the return of the US fleet, AKA "War Plan Orange".

You'll be hearing from those BB's,CA's and carriers real soon. [:D]

Consider this; the USN unleashed it's submarines on Dec 8, because, besides it's carrier force, it was all it had. Well, I still have 1/2 my subs,all of my carriers, and a whole lot more of options.

Also consider this: you haven't sunk a single warship larger than a destroyer.You haven't even damaged one.

It will be very informative to see how this plays out. I believe that you see your attack as delaying the return of allied forces for six months to a year. I see it as speeding up the return for the same amount of time.

Time will tell. [:D]

You're right about that time telling bit.

Ketza has some very salient observations in this thread about one of his PBEMs. In this PBEM, the allied player pushed forward too quickly with his untouched Pearl pre-war BBs, only to see them savaged by torpedo-equipped aircraft. I had a similar experience in one of my other PBEMs.

So, Steve-I've got one word for you-designed to reduce you to a quivering heap. Ready? EMILY! [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



In this PBEM, you can see the list of ships sunk on December 8 and 9 on the AAR (Liquidating the gaijin) and judge for yourselves the initial impact of this decision.

Long-term implications will inevitably be delayed, as the Pearl BBs have not made themselves known, nor have the long-term benefits of destroying the Allied submarine fleet at Manila.

Destroying submarine fleet? That's a little harsh. Crippling would be a better term. You sank 2/3s. You severely damaged a "fleet" that in real life had already been written off.I'll miss the tenders and mine craft more than anything else. And spared ALL of my BB's,CA's and CL's,DD's,SS's and aux's at PH, not to mention all those airframes,pilots, the fuel farm and machine shops. I'd say that while you sped up the conquest of the PI and DEI, you also sped up the return of the US fleet, AKA "War Plan Orange".

You'll be hearing from those BB's,CA's and carriers real soon. [:D]

Consider this; the USN unleashed it's submarines on Dec 8, because, besides it's carrier force, it was all it had. Well, I still have 1/2 my subs,all of my carriers, and a whole lot more of options.

Also consider this: you haven't sunk a single warship larger than a destroyer.You haven't even damaged one.

It will be very informative to see how this plays out. I believe that you see your attack as delaying the return of allied forces for six months to a year. I see it as speeding up the return for the same amount of time.

Time will tell. [:D]

You're right about that time telling bit.

Ketza has some very salient observations in this thread about one of his PBEMs. In this PBEM, the allied player pushed forward too quickly with his untouched Pearl pre-war BBs, only to see them savaged by torpedo-equipped aircraft. I had a similar experience in one of my other PBEMs.

So, Steve-I've got one word for you-designed to reduce you to a quivering heap. Ready? EMILY! [:D]

I'm ready for you this time! [:D] Introducing "COMBAT KINGFISHERS!" And "SLAUGHTERING SEAGULLS"! [:D]

[bklooste]

I bet the "flying boats" at pearl kill more ships that the subs at Manilla with their crappy torps. [8D]

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



In this PBEM, you can see the list of ships sunk on December 8 and 9 on the AAR (Liquidating the gaijin) and judge for yourselves the initial impact of this decision.

Long-term implications will inevitably be delayed, as the Pearl BBs have not made themselves known, nor have the long-term benefits of destroying the Allied submarine fleet at Manila.

Destroying submarine fleet? That's a little harsh. Crippling would be a better term. You sank 2/3s. You severely damaged a "fleet" that in real life had already been written off.I'll miss the tenders and mine craft more than anything else. And spared ALL of my BB's,CA's and CL's,DD's,SS's and aux's at PH, not to mention all those airframes,pilots, the fuel farm and machine shops. I'd say that while you sped up the conquest of the PI and DEI, you also sped up the return of the US fleet, AKA "War Plan Orange".

You'll be hearing from those BB's,CA's and carriers real soon. [:D]

Consider this; the USN unleashed it's submarines on Dec 8, because, besides it's carrier force, it was all it had. Well, I still have 1/2 my subs,all of my carriers, and a whole lot more of options.

Also consider this: you haven't sunk a single warship larger than a destroyer.You haven't even damaged one.

It will be very informative to see how this plays out. I believe that you see your attack as delaying the return of allied forces for six months to a year. I see it as speeding up the return for the same amount of time.

Time will tell. [:D]

You're right about that time telling bit.

Ketza has some very salient observations in this thread about one of his PBEMs. In this PBEM, the allied player pushed forward too quickly with his untouched Pearl pre-war BBs, only to see them savaged by torpedo-equipped aircraft. I had a similar experience in one of my other PBEMs.

So, Steve-I've got one word for you-designed to reduce you to a quivering heap. Ready? EMILY! [:D]

That depends on the player .. Nemo used the old BBs to attack and take the Marshals in very Early 42... He faced Kb2 and several BBs. How many Japanese players like the prospect of loosing teh central Pacific before Singapore and Manilla ? The old BBs are a threat which require significant resources to counter. And 70 allied equivalent of the Emily start at Pearl and can be bombed !!