War in the West

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: RCH

Aurelian I don't understand your posts unless it is your intention to incite me. I simply made a post 4 days ago that a good argument was made. I'm not to overly concerned about making my own SUs. I consider that relatively minor. The comments about troop withdraws is a more deserving argument which is also a point that was being made. You also accuse me of trolling. I have communicated with Joel a couple of times by pm about my issues and he never accused me of being a troll or told me to leave the game.

I have come to the realization that the game is what it is and no changes will be made. I'm still here because I have an ongoing game and patches are coming out every 3 days.

I have never told anyone not to play the game, but I have said that the "game" can be fun if played as a "game" (accepting current game design parameters). I have never insulted anyone. I have made some strong posts in the past that if you want to debate we can. Except all those posts, are in general agreement with what both sides have already understood to be game weaknesses, as an example supply is a issue,etc........ The posts that I make about bias I firmly hold to be true and if you want (it isn't going to do any good) we can debate about that.

I have noticed that you seem to target Axis players with intention to incite them. Why?

I'd rather just drop it ,but if you must, lets continue it in private; and please take more time in what you are writing and get your thoughts straight.

I don't understand your willful ignorance, so I'll try once more.

Back in 2009, before the game was released, it was decided that Axis production was not essential to the game. It's a dead horse. It's dead, buried, the bones have been pounded into dust.

Maybe you should go back to the post you made that kicked this all off.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Actually, I doubt even the western allies will be allowed to build their own units...I believe the Americans in particular finished building their divisions in mid 1943. Not sure about the Brits though.

I don't think they would as they have the other theater to worry about.

[RCHarmon]

Aurelian,

I would like for you to go back to my original post about production. I have never written a post about production at any time. I have never asked for production control at any time. Can you produce the post where I have?


If you want to talk automatic toe upgrades, or withdraw schedules, or fitting panzer divisions with what is available those were points that another player brought up that are good arguments. I only said that the argument was a good one and you jumped all over that player for it. Is this really so hard for you to understand? I am bored of this conversation and I am sure others are as well.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: RCH

Quote["So you don't have one. Which means that OKH didn't make any. Which means that to get what you want would make WiTE a fantasy game. And you are against that.

I believe it was John Paul Jones who said "If we can't have what we like, we have to learn to like what we have.""]


We have a good argument being made and instead of addressing the argument the person is patronized.


It is better to say the game is what it is and no changes will be forthcoming.

Here you go.

Now the person you claim was patronized you also claim was making a good arguement. And the use of the word *we* shows that you agree with it.

So, now I'll explain why it is *not*

This was addressed back in 2009. It was posted that Axis production was not essential to the game. Thus, your so called good arguement was dead before you even made it. Even in that thread, people were told it's a dead horse, and it wasn't going to change.

So, why, years after that, and more than a year after the game has been published are the bones of this dead horse being ground into powder?

There are two possibilities. 1: Ignorance of the fact that it' a dead issue. (For which there is no excuse.) 2: Trolling. Which is the most likely excuse.

As for the statement "It is better to say the game is what it is and no changes will be forthcoming." I said it. The people who actualyworked on it have said it, (which is how I know.)

So I fail to see your lack of comprehension.

[RCHarmon]

I believe you need a lesson in English usage and context. I will say it again, I don't want production control and never have. Do I need to repeat myself again? Your only purpose is to incite conflict. I am calling you out on that. You accuse me of a position that I have never held and why to cause conflict. You target Axis players and have now targeted me.

Since you were wrong about any comment that I might have made will I get an apology? No, you will just attack again.

[2ndACR]

I am not ignorant of any fact of this game. Last I looked this was a thread about War in the West......any comment I made was intended to try and influence the making of the new game and possibly have it retrofitted back. Since a stated goal was for the games to be linked at some point in time, I am using the only part of the game I have access to as an examples. That would be WITE.

Now you can try and say I am trolling but you would be wrong there. I have been around this site a lot longer than you and the only trolling on Matrix I did looking for a fight were in the old Art of War forum. Now I will comment on any part of a game as I see fit. Any are allowed to agree or disagree. The testers and such that have actually tried to explain things etc, are thanked. I might disagree and even argue the fact with them. But I keep it civil. But you Aurlian make me long for the old days with your sanctimonious attitude. But since you are a nobody, I could care less what you say or think.

As to the fact of the game being out 2 years, yes, I wonder how long WITP was out before we got PDU options? Care to guess? About 2 years. And it was a long hard fight to get it, but we did.

But since I have shelved the game as an versus AI only and no longer a serious PBEM game, it is all a moot point. It still holds great promise, but until major changes are made down the road, it will stay shelved by me for PBEM. It ties the German's hands way too much.

[LiquidSky]

After doing some simple research, it seems the British as well didnt build new formations after early 1943 as well. Seems like it would be pretty hard to justify any sort of production system for the western allies (for ground units).

[Dili]

it was decided that Axis production was not essential to the game.

There are two different things: A: production B: tweaking of production.

The production available matter in every strategic game, not only in this one. The tweaking of production is not necessary if there is a historical limit of Pz.IV, T-34, squads in game, just an example of some equipment, and matters not only for Germans, for Russians too. Ideally the value should be able to fluctuate a little depending on conditions.
Then if there is big attrition maybe some units might appear more depleted than IRL and the player to make them useful might disband and merge the equipment in one. That is doing things right.

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



After doing some simple research, it seems the British as well didnt build new formations after early 1943 as well. Seems like it would be pretty hard to justify any sort of production system for the western allies (for ground units).

The US intentionally capped the number of Divisions produced at just shy of 90. Britian didn't have the bodies to produce more than they did without adversely impacting home production. Western production is, therefore, absolutely pointless.

You could argue the game should allow the Americans to produce more than 90, but then WITW 43-45 will be a pretty fruitless exercise for the AXIs as it is, without adding another dozen US Infantry divisions to the OOB.

Regards,
ID

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Dili

it was decided that Axis production was not essential to the game.

There are two different things: A: production B: tweaking of production.

The production available matter in every strategic game, not only in this one. The tweaking of production is not necessary if there is a historical limit of Pz.IV, T-34, squads in game, just an example of some equipment, and matters not only for Germans, for Russians too. Ideally the value should be able to fluctuate a little depending on conditions.
Then if there is big attrition maybe some units might appear more depleted than IRL and the player to make them useful might disband and merge the equipment in one. That is doing things right.

You can merge depleted units of the same type together IIRC.

But, you can't tweak what you can't change (The Axis production isn't changable, thus untweakable.)

[Great_Ajax]

There are a lot more factors at work behind the scenes than a simple extra missing division out there. Many of those points have been pointed out here already. Yes, the 345th Infantry began forming in late November 1942 and was later renamed to the 29th Panzergrenadier Division. I don't think anyone knows how much of that division was actually on-hand in terms of personnel and equipment when the 29th Motorized was destroyed in late Feb/early March 1943 which was just three months after the 345th started forming. It looks like only a Panzergrenadier Battalion and a Stug battery from the 345th were deemed combat ready enough to be sent East by early January but those plans were canceled. You additionally have the issues of the Germans de-motorizing at least two motorized divisions in the summer of 1943 since there were obvious transportation constraints. How would that affect an extra Panzergrenadier division? Would it have been de-motorized as well? Dunno. Do we really want to run this down the rabbit hole in an alternative universe?

Historically, there were numerous divisions that were destroyed and were not reconstituted at all by the Germans in any theater. In WitE, the player doesn't have to worry about this since all units destroyed (except for the ones on the withdrawal schedule) are automatically reconstituted and usable by the player. Obviously, there were equipment and personnel bottlenecks in which decisions were made not to reconstitute these units. Do we really want to incorporate additional rules and draw away additional time and resources away from WitW development to look into these obscure issues? If we did, it would probably result in more German units not being reconstituted.

In the end, I think it evens out. The Germans debatefully lose a handful of divisions but the German player's destroyed in-game units aren't subject to being outright disbanded which happened often. I think that is a plus for the German player. Also, the German player benefits from many "free" reinforcements that have not been subjected to production.

Personally, I don't like the arrival/withdrawal system as I agree that it is arbitary while I liked the old War in Russia and Western Front holding boxes for theaters. That decision wasn't made by me and it isn't going to change. I really have no desire to revisit this issue since I could be using my time doing more productive things like building the 1944 Campaign for WitW which is what I am doing now. Joel has already pointed out clearly that there will be no new major changes or features to WitE as we begin transitioning over to WitW development.

Trey

[heliodorus04]

I don't understand how it's a wash, given the way production and replacements (and recovery of wounded men back into pools) are hard-coded such that 1-x went west, and X went east (X being the percent of stuff dedicated to the east).

That a WitE-destroyed division comes back does not mean the east front gets any additional men over what is basically a fixed amount of Germans (and a variable but very small number of Hiwis) that will ever go to the Eastern front.

Your WitE "free" division draws its men from the manpower pool, which itself is comprised of the X value (see above) by the year/percent of "stuff" sent to the East. In other words, your free division instantly dilutes your average strength.

When 29 Motor exits the map, it takes everyone with it (including taking as many Eastern Front-dedicated replacement men and equipment as may be necessary to bring it to 75% TOE, which is a double-hit to Eastern Front manpower - what was there vanishes, and it can take ). None of the guys in it (if it's over 75% TOE) will go to the Eastern Front replacement pool, nor their equipment. I guess it goes wherever the USS Eldridge went. Because the 345 Infantry is drawing its men and equipment from the manpower not factored into this game by virtue of its being abstractly dedicated to the other theaters.

And yes, I get it: this won't change. It becomes a point that must be belabored because one faction of the argument says "It's insignificant" and no amount of manpower or equipment on the eastern front, even a kettenkrad, is insignificant.

[Great_Ajax]

It's a wash because that's the best that two programming guys can do with the amount of resources and time they can invest and still do this for a living. Therefore, the programming result is adequate and no one claims that it is perfect. There has to come a point in time when the developer has to make a decision to move on to the next project so that they can continue to make more games.

Trey

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I don't understand how it's a wash, given the way production and replacements (and recovery of wounded men back into pools) are hard-coded such that 1-x went west, and X went east (X being the percent of stuff dedicated to the east).

That a WitE-destroyed division comes back does not mean the east front gets any additional men over what is basically a fixed amount of Germans (and a variable but very small number of Hiwis) that will ever go to the Eastern front.

Your WitE "free" division draws its men from the manpower pool, which itself is comprised of the X value (see above) by the year/percent of "stuff" sent to the East. In other words, your free division instantly dilutes your average strength.

When 29 Motor exits the map, it takes everyone with it (including taking as many Eastern Front-dedicated replacement men and equipment as may be necessary to bring it to 75% TOE, which is a double-hit to Eastern Front manpower - what was there vanishes, and it can take ). None of the guys in it (if it's over 75% TOE) will go to the Eastern Front replacement pool, nor their equipment. I guess it goes wherever the USS Eldridge went. Because the 345 Infantry is drawing its men and equipment from the manpower not factored into this game by virtue of its being abstractly dedicated to the other theaters.

And yes, I get it: this won't change. It becomes a point that must be belabored because one faction of the argument says "It's insignificant" and no amount of manpower or equipment on the eastern front, even a kettenkrad, is insignificant.

[Tophat1815]

So how did a War in the West thread turn into a circular argument about German production/replacement/reconstituted divisions not being fair to the German player in WiTE?

Its a wash? No its a benefit to Germany! No its still hopelessly imbalanced against Germany! People say and site various facts and arcane lore.....teeth are gnashed,coffee is consumed,methane expelled so next a global warming argument is about to breakout.

If we must continue to indulge in a pointless revamp and allow German production in WiTE thread can we move it to say: The pointless German production argument for WiTE?

The we can have a WiTW thread that is about War in the West! I for one would much rather read about el hefe's work on the 1944 allied campaign then countless back and forth argument.

[Great_Ajax]

I'd love to talk about it but Joel would have to divulge any information on WitW.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


So how did a War in the West thread turn into a circular argument about German production/replacement/reconstituted divisions not being fair to the German player in WiTE?

Its a wash? No its a benefit to Germany! No its still hopelessly imbalanced against Germany! People say and site various facts and arcane lore.....teeth are gnashed,coffee is consumed,methane expelled so next a global warming argument is about to breakout.

If we must continue to indulge in a pointless revamp and allow German production in WiTE thread can we move it to say: The pointless German production argument for WiTE?

The we can have a WiTW thread that is about War in the West! I for one would much rather read about el hefe's work on the 1944 allied campaign then countless back and forth argument.

[veji1]

Not to go back to the specific point about german unit withdrawals, I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects". This, i believe, is a mistake. WITP-AE exists because there was a culture of improvement of WITP that led to getting the best out of it, and once this proved to hard, substantially rebuild it to get WITP-AE. Without the imporvements and testing of alternatives done in WITP (foremost the introduction of PDU), WITP-AE wouldn't be what it is.

By not giving a try to improving WITE beyond bug fixes and plain imbalance fixes, the team is depriving itself of the opportunity to try out improvements on a actual game, which is so much more efficien than BETA-testing of a project. Let's try allowing the players to tweak the TOEs of their units to fit what they have at hand, let's try to see if allowing Germany more flexibility on the SU front, in the limits of what is availbale, can make the game a better experience and lead to useful conclusions for the other games to come.

WITE should be the testing ground of improvements, rather than just put aside to wait for an unlikely retrofitting of improvements, more likely a WITE2 down the road.

What I am trying to say is that what makes WITP-AE great is that it is the result of all the work done on WITP. Without the ambition of the community and the developpers in adapting WITP, AE would not have been possible. Hope WITE takes the same road.

[Timmeh]

ORIGINAL: veji1

Not to go back to the specific point about german unit withdrawals, I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects". This, i believe, is a mistake. WITP-AE exists because there was a culture of improvement of WITP that led to getting the best out of it, and once this proved to hard, substantially rebuild it to get WITP-AE. Without the imporvements and testing of alternatives done in WITP (foremost the introduction of PDU), WITP-AE wouldn't be what it is.

By not giving a try to improving WITE beyond bug fixes and plain imbalance fixes, the team is depriving itself of the opportunity to try out improvements on a actual game, which is so much more efficien than BETA-testing of a project. Let's try allowing the players to tweak the TOEs of their units to fit what they have at hand, let's try to see if allowing Germany more flexibility on the SU front, in the limits of what is availbale, can make the game a better experience and lead to useful conclusions for the other games to come.

WITE should be the testing ground of improvements, rather than just put aside to wait for an unlikely retrofitting of improvements, more likely a WITE2 down the road.

What I am trying to say is that what makes WITP-AE great is that it is the result of all the work done on WITP. Without the ambition of the community and the developpers in adapting WITP, AE would not have been possible. Hope WITE takes the same road.

+1 for WITE-GE

[Denniss]

Although the major development focus is now WitW, WitE is not dead. We still try to fix bugs found by customers or testers and some data updates may still be hovering around. Some developments from WitW may be backported to WitE if that doesn't require a complete engine rebuild.

And yes, I see room for improvement on the unit withdrawals. For example I don't like them withdrawing and taking so many equipment with them. In the real world I'd think they would have left heavy stuff at the front for other units while transporting only the core components back to germany and receiving factory-fresh stuff there (whay should they sent new tanks the long way to russia, then move a division worth of them back to germany and move even more new tanks in?). I'd like to see the units leaving all vehicle equipment above 75% component TOE at the eastern front while taking all of the other stuff with them. If maxTOE (or was it actual unit TOE?) is below 75% upon starting the withdrawal process, maxTOE may jump to 100% thus a unit would receive a lot more reinforcements than required. A better solution would be a jump to 80% here.

And to destroyed unit withdrawals: This may not be nice to have non-destroyed but historically destroyed units removed but keeping the units on the battlefield may also require to remove some of the reinforcement divisions sent-in as replacement for the destroyed ones.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


So how did a War in the West thread turn into a circular argument about German production/replacement/reconstituted divisions not being fair to the German player in WiTE?

Its a wash? No its a benefit to Germany! No its still hopelessly imbalanced against Germany! People say and site various facts and arcane lore.....teeth are gnashed,coffee is consumed,methane expelled so next a global warming argument is about to breakout.

If we must continue to indulge in a pointless revamp and allow German production in WiTE thread can we move it to say: The pointless German production argument for WiTE?

The we can have a WiTW thread that is about War in the West! I for one would much rather read about el hefe's work on the 1944 allied campaign then countless back and forth argument.

To answer the original question which started this thread: Yes. we are working on WitW.

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: veji1

Not to go back to the specific point about german unit withdrawals, I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects". This, i believe, is a mistake. WITP-AE exists because there was a culture of improvement of WITP that led to getting the best out of it, and once this proved to hard, substantially rebuild it to get WITP-AE. Without the imporvements and testing of alternatives done in WITP (foremost the introduction of PDU), WITP-AE wouldn't be what it is.

By not giving a try to improving WITE beyond bug fixes and plain imbalance fixes, the team is depriving itself of the opportunity to try out improvements on a actual game, which is so much more efficien than BETA-testing of a project. Let's try allowing the players to tweak the TOEs of their units to fit what they have at hand, let's try to see if allowing Germany more flexibility on the SU front, in the limits of what is availbale, can make the game a better experience and lead to useful conclusions for the other games to come.

WITE should be the testing ground of improvements, rather than just put aside to wait for an unlikely retrofitting of improvements, more likely a WITE2 down the road.

What I am trying to say is that what makes WITP-AE great is that it is the result of all the work done on WITP. Without the ambition of the community and the developpers in adapting WITP, AE would not have been possible. Hope WITE takes the same road.

Veji I think you will find that the path forward for WITE is through the development process of WITW. I'm pretty sure that systems and knowledge gained from WITW developement will pay significant dividends for WITE in the future.