A New 'Treaty' Grand Campaign

[JuanG]

Lexington (also referred to as Constitution)
Laid down 1920, launched 1924, completed 1925. CC-5 Constitution and CC-2 Constellation were the two hulls retained, and completed to a slight modification of the design proposed in 1919.

As completed;
Length 259.1m (850ft) waterline, Beam 30.2m (99ft), Draft 9.2m (30ft)
Displacement 40,100 tons standard, 46,200 tons full load
Weapons
4 two-gun 16in/50 turrets with two forward, two aft (100 rounds per gun, maximum elevation 40 degrees)
8 casemated 6in/53s at main deck height
8 open mount 6in/53s in the superstructure
4 high-angle 3in/50s in the superstructure
4 underwater 533mm torpedo tubes on the beam
4 above water 533mm torpedo tubes on the beam
Protection
228mm main belt
52mm main deck, 52mm lower deck
305mm turret faces, 152mm sides, 203mm rears, 102mm crowns, 203mm barbettes
25mm casemate protection
Propulsion
Powerplant giving 190,000 horsepower for 33.5 knots (oil firing)
Range of 10100nm at 15 knots
Bunkerage of 6000 tons of fuel oil

These ships receive a modest series of modernizations between 1932-1935 to correct some of the more serious flaws - despite their young age they are considered useful enough to warrant this. The main changes are the removal of the torpedoes, some improvements to deck protection, the addition of a 4ft bulge for torpedo defence, some work on the powerplant, and installation of newer high-angle guns. Shortly before the beginning of the war they receive CXAM radar sets.

At the beginning of the war;
Length 259.1m (850ft) waterline, Beam 30.2m (99ft) with 31.4m (103ft) bulges, Draft 9.5m (31ft)
Displacement 43,200 tons standard, 49,700 tons full load
Weapons
4 two-gun 16in/50 turrets with two forward, two aft (100 rounds per gun, maximum elevation 40 degrees)
8 casemated 6in/53s at main deck height
8 high-angle 5in/25s in the superstructure
4 high-angle 3in/50s in the superstructure
Some 1.1in and 20mm AA
Protection
228mm main belt
89mm main deck, 52mm lower deck
305mm turret faces, 152mm sides, 203mm rears, 102mm crowns, 203mm barbettes
25mm casemate protection
Propulsion
Powerplant giving 196,000 horsepower for 33.2 knots (oil firing)
Range of 10220nm at 15 knots
Bunkerage of 6410 tons of fuel oil



After the beginning of the war, these ships will no doubt become very useful as carrier escorts, though limited by their older AA weapons. However, taking them out of the war for close to a year for a full rebuild might not be an option, so I present two different options for rebuilds to these ships.

'Light' Rebuild (based on historical Colorado changes)
Length 259.1m (850ft) waterline, Beam 30.2m (99ft) with 33m (108ft) bulges, Draft 9.5m (31ft)
Displacement 44,100 tons standard, 50,500 tons full load
Weapons
4 two-gun 16in/50 turrets with two forward, two aft (100 rounds per gun, maximum elevation 40 degrees)
8 casemated 6in/53s at main deck height
16 high-angle 5in/25s in the superstructure
1.1in and 20mm AA
Protection
228mm main belt
102mm main deck, 52mm lower deck
305mm turret faces, 152mm sides, 203mm rears, 102mm crowns, 203mm barbettes
25mm casemate protection
Propulsion
Powerplant giving 196,000 horsepower for 32.9 knots (oil firing)
Range of 10060nm at 15 knots
Bunkerage of 6410 tons of fuel oil



'Full' Rebuild (based on historical West Virginia changes)
Length 259.1m (850ft) waterline, Beam 30.2m (99ft) with 34.5m (113ft) bulges, Draft 9.5m (31ft)
Displacement 45,800 tons standard, 53,800 tons full load
Weapons
4 two-gun 16in/50 turrets with two forward, two aft (100 rounds per gun, maximum elevation 40 degrees)
8 twin 5in/38s on the sides
1.1in and 20mm AA
Protection
228mm main belt
127mm main deck, 52mm lower deck
305mm turret faces, 152mm sides, 203mm rears, 102mm crowns, 203mm barbettes
Propulsion
Powerplant giving 196,000 horsepower for 32.3 knots (oil firing - new boilers)
Range of 12050nm at 15 knots
Bunkerage of 6960 tons of fuel oil



NOTE: I am using the 16in/50 Mk7 as a placeholder for the 16in/50 Mk3 in these images.

[Kitakami]

I may not be the most acute historian, but I like both designs. They feel right somehow. Those US ships with 8x 16" rifles running around at a max speed of 32kt. will be one big nightmare for bombardment missions against Japan.

Just one question regarding the Amagi class: does the addition of a larger bulge for torpedo defense and stability require the removal of the torpedo tubes?

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

I may not be the most acute historian, but I like both designs. They feel right somehow. Those US ships with 8x 16" rifles running around at a max speed of 32kt. will be one big nightmare for bombardment missions against Japan.

Just one question regarding the Amagi class: does the addition of a larger bulge for torpedo defense and stability require the removal of the torpedo tubes?

I wouldn't say it requires it, but it makes it easier, and underwater torpedo tubes represent a weakpoint from a torpedo defence standpoint in addition to being rather useless from a tactical standpoint.

However, I your comment actually led me to realize I had marked Amagi's tubes as underwater by error, they should above water, and I've fixed this in that post.

[DOCUP]

Juan Looks great.  Looks like in a dual the Amagi would win though.  Has anyone thought of the upgrades to these ships as the war progresses?

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Juan Looks great.  Looks like in a dual the Amagi would win though.  Has anyone thought of the upgrades to these ships as the war progresses?

To be honest it could go either way - both of these mount really big guns with not a lot of protection. Amagi probably does have more value as a surface combatant, but I think Lexington will be the more useful escort especially in that final configuration. She has a lot of deckspace for 40mm...

I did consider a rebuild for Lexington that would have included more belt armour (as was done to Repulse), but I don't think it would be suitable for the 30s upgrade, and its not really feasible during wartime as these ships will be way too useful to take out of action for 12-18 months.

I have created proposals for upgrade trees and will pass these along to John to look at, will see what he wants to do with them.

[DOCUP]

I agree with the upgrades on the Lexingtons.  Limited modernization.  I looked up the main gun values the Lexi's got some good guns, I could not find the Amagi's in the editor.

[JuanG]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I agree with the upgrades on the Lexingtons.  Limited modernization.  I looked up the main gun values the Lexi's got some good guns, I could not find the Amagi's in the editor.

The main battery guns are the same as on Nagato, except for the addition of the 5th turret.

[DOCUP]

Lexi has better penetration.

[Erkki]

Sorry John, but I found one (hopefully last) air db error for you. [:'(] Chinese I-16-III and V-VS I-16m24: has 4 x CT machine guns, both should be 2 CT + 2 F!

[Kitakami]

Totally off-topic: I resent any intention to make James Tiberius Kirk captain of CV-6 Enterprise, or to make him an admiral and have him command a fleet! The Grey Ghost has enough luck as it is

[btd64]

JuanG, Looks great. In terms of upgrades for the lex, Can't you just do small upgrades every few months or so. In the CV config she gets I think 3 upgrades during 42. GP

[John 3rd]

Figure the major upgrade at the start and little ones each year after that.

LOVE THE WORK JUAN!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Sorry John, but I found one (hopefully last) air db error for you. [:'(] Chinese I-16-III and V-VS I-16m24: has 4 x CT machine guns, both should be 2 CT + 2 F!

THANKS!

[John 3rd]

How many are excited to play with these wessels!!?? Cannot wait states the John.

Michael and John (JWE/Symon) are working on file stuff right now. Once they have things settled I shall begin the work on the Treaty Mod with the ships. I am serious that this will only take a few days to do since we're just ADDING a few ships to the OOB prior to a Dec 7th pure Babes vanilla scenario. EASY!

[btd64]

Looks to be interesting. But, will I have the time to play it? That is the question...I suppose I could cut back some more on sleep.[:D] Sleep is overrated you know.[:D] Who neeeeeeeedddddsssss sssllleeeppppp[>:]

[John 3rd]

As mentioned in the RA Thread, JWE/Symon is working on importing all the RA material into a DB-C Mod. It will then become our working template for the Hybrid and a pure vanilla RA. Figure if we get the RA material fully brought in why not make ALL THREE Mods based fully off of DB-C? Makes good sense to me...

[John 3rd]

All discussion on this thread shall now move to the Between the Storms Thread.

[derhexer]

OK, where's the Between The Storms Thread?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

Since there is historical precedent, I'd suggest that the crews of both CLVs request to keep the names of their ships, and that the ships be given cruiser (ie. river) names. A few candidates are:

- Ishikari
- Teshio
- Tokachi
- Kushiro
- Shiribetsu
- Tokoro

Those are some of the longest rivers in Hokaido, which would suit the expected or perceived importance of the ships, after all.

As for how to arrange them, I'd divide Kido Butai in three CarDivs, with 2x CV and 1x CVL each, and would add the two CLVs to the CVE force. Locations... your choice

You will be happy to know I used nearly all these names in the Treaty Mod. THANKS!

[John 3rd]

Here is the first draft of the Treaty Mod description that one would see when loading the Scenario:

The Treaty Mod
ALTNAV 1922-1937

The Treaty Mod for AE has been created to reflect a slightly different outcome of the historic Washington and London Naval Conferences: 1922-1937. With little changes and tweaks to the Treaty System, a slightly a-historic outcome is produced. It should be noted that no changes are made to any major power from 1937-1941.

The Washington Conference
Charles Evans Hughes blueprint for disarmament gets out and the Japanese stonewall a Naval Conference for a full year. The Conference does take place in 1922 and disarmament is agreed upon, however, there are additions allowed due to the added time to get the meeting going. The whole Mutsu Debate is scrapped due to Mutsu actually being ready and deployed at that point. While maintaining the 5-5-3 ratio between Great Britain, the United States, and Japan, there are several new outcomes:

1. The Japanese then argue to keep either a Tosa or a pair of the Amagi Class battlecruisers. The Americans carry the day in arguing for the Lexington-Class battlecruisers being completed. They gain the Ranger and Constellation (while scrapping BB Mississippi to maintain balance), Great Britain gets the option to build a pair of Super-Hoods (while additionally scrapping Royal Sovereign), and Japan completes Amagi-Class Ishitaka.

2. The whole subject of CVs is reworked:
a. Allow two 'experimental' CVs (two Hosho's and two Langley's)
b. Two BC conversions are allowed but further treaty tonnage is added for one more CVL to be built by both Japan and USA. The Americans build the King’s Mountain (proto-Independence Class) and the Japanese back off the failed Ryujo design to build Ryukaku (a proto-CVL as well).

The London Conference
Moving on to the London Conference (1930) and the subject of Cruisers is re-worked:
1. Japan--at all costs--sticks to its goal of 70% for CAs (instead of 60%). This allows for GB and USA to build two more CAs (USA: Burlington and Rome) while Japan gains one.
2. Great Britain--who nearly scrapped the treaty due to the issue of CAs and CLs--stands firm over its argument and forces a larger tonnage for CLs. USA adds USS Anchorage and Dallas.
3. Both Japan and the United States were looking at hybrid Cruiser—CVs and they force Great Britain, following the example set with the Washington BC—CV Conversions, to allow for two hybrids each in the early-30s. USA builds CLV Charlotte and Jacksonville, GB builds CAV Melbourne and Wellington (sold/given to those respective navies), and Japan finishes up with CAV Kushiro and Tokachi.

***It should be noted that to take maximum advantage of the revised Treaty tonnages, Japan converts several of the oldest CLs into fast ML, builds additional Myoko-Class CAs and keeps the Mogami Class as 6” CLs.

As war clouds gather on the horizon, the United States makes several important decisions (1) to slightly reinforce the Asiatic Fleet with an additional CA, CL, and 4 modern DDs, (2) Admiral Hart also decides to follow his inner thoughts and begin development of Cebu as an alternate anchorage, and (3) the Scouting Force, commanded by Vc-Adm Wilson is sent south to protect the Philippine reinforcement TFs going to the Philippines (The Pensacola TF) and the empty TF returning from the Philippines (The Chester TF).

Japan deploys its few new ships to protect the Invasion TFs coming from Babeldoap and Cam Rahn Bay as the Kido Butai steams towards its rendezvous with destiny at Pearl Harbor…