Pelton(GHC) vs smokindave34 Turn 211 Game Complete DRAW

[Peltonx]

Still some punch, trading blow for blow.

Moving panzers from north into the fight in center/south.

[Peltonx]

A few hasty attacks later, problem solved and lines restored.

[Peltonx]

Turn 150 Turns left: 61 with 19 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 860 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +43 ------------------------------------- VP: 214

GHC Armaments: 477,000 Manpower in Pool: 391,000
SHC OOB: 9,018,000 + 319,000
GHC OOB: 3,676,000 + 71,000

[Peltonx]

Turn 155 Turns left: 56 with 13 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 800 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +37 ------------------------------------- VP: 181

GHC Armaments: 598,000 +121,000 Manpower in Pool: 410,000 +19,000
SHC OOB: 9,223,000 + 114,000
GHC OOB: 3,662,000 -14,000

Manpower and armament pools look great.
I had to retreat and extra hex this past turn to try and stabilize the lines before the last mud turn.
I might have to retreat 3 hexes per turn until we get over the river. Tring to lose as few divisions as possible so
that once the lines shorten I have a respectable CV line. I have allot more hexes to give in the south so I will retreat
3 per turn down there over the summer.

At least the German OOB has stabilized over the last 15 turns [:)]

[M60A3TTS]

Is Finland still in the game?

[smokindave34]

Finland is Kaput! It's mid -June '44 and I'm at the land bridge (close to historical) but still about 60KM east of Kiev and I'm at the doorstep of D and Z town (quite a bit behind). Pelton has some RL commitments so his return rate has slowed down recently. Here are my current production numbers for June '44. I'm trying to keep my army in the 9 million range to improve my supply situation, plus as the front gets shorter I'll have whole armies sitting idle until they can rotate to the front so I don't need more counters/men at this point. Managing to get a few breakthroughs here and there but nothing major to date.

[smokindave34]

And the current OOB.

[MattFL]

Any screens from the SHC perspective? I'm curious to see the piles of counters from the Soviet side. Also, I was wondering about breakthroughs. Seems there hasn't been a major one at all, is it just not possible given how he's retreating most turns?

[smokindave34]

I'll get some screens when I get the next turn back from Pelton. A few minor breakthroughs but Pelton is pulling back 2 to 3 hexes each turn so the majority of my infantry corps don't have MP to launch deliberate attacks. The cavalry and tank/mech corps are the only units launching deliberate attacks. I was able to surround two panzer divisions last turn which was rewarding but to date there have been no clear breakthroughs.

[Peltonx]

Turn 160 Turns left: 51 with 12 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 680 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +29 ------------------------------------- VP: 171

GHC Armaments: 690,000 +92,000
Manpower in Pool: 362,000 -48,000
SHC OOB: 9,223,000 + 114,000
GHC OOB: 3,662,000 -74,000

A rough 5 turns for sure with another 12 turns of clear weather to follow.
Stavka is finally managing to chip away at the massive German manpower pool. The pool has been a huge help as the units are back to full health and NM levels withen 5 to 6 turns and back at the front.
OKH so far has managed to keep Stavka under control with drawing 2 hexes per turn counter
attacking where needed while only losing a division or 2 per turn if that.
OKH has been able to completely stone wall Stavka at the land bridge for 4 turns,
hopefully as lines shorten at the end of summer this will be the norm.
In the deep south the hex to turn ratio is still huge so doing great south of Kiev as
I can retreat 3 hexes when needed. The next 12 turns are critical.
OKH needs to keep up the good fight for 12 more turns then MP’s will be tight in
the snow and tighter during the blizzard. OKH should be able to 3x stack with allot
of panzers and infantry divisions in reserve mode. OKH will have to stand and fight from December to the end of the war.


Turns will be slow until October as I have several weeks of vacation coming up and everyone else in my
office does also so when I am not on vacation I be helping cover for other people.

[Peltonx]

Last turn Stavka

Won 12 battles and lost 11, so the tempo is very light.

With the 2 hex retreat per turn coupled with the strong panzers OKH still has Stavka has very few units it can attack with good odds.

4 of the 12 wins were vs regiments.

I am hoping when the front goes from 90+ hexes to 60 I have 2 or 3 divisions in the front line, 1 divisions in 2nd and a 3rd line of diggers.

OKH receives allot of new divisions an brigades over the next 51 turns.

July to Jan 1st + 21 divisions
Jan to march + 32 divisions
March to end +18 divisions

I did not bother counting regiments.

So the key is to hold things together over the next 12 turns aka not giving up to much
space and not losing to many divisions so that when these +53 divisions by March 1st
come on line I should have at least a fighting chance to not retreat at all making Stavka grind it out to Berlin.

That's the plan anyways as there simply is no "other" plan.

[smokindave34]

Here are a few screens from the Soviet perspective. I finally achieved a bit of a breakthrough in the north. The 7th Guards army breaks through with the 4th tank corps taking key terrain about 100km east of Riga. Pelton has kept me from obtaining any breakthroughs to this point so this is the highlight of my summer offensive so far.

I won't post much here since it's Pelton's AAR however I have seen some recent threads discussing how much HI is needed to survive. I wouldn't use my results as a minimum. Pelton's destruction of my industry really slowed me down up until now and a lot of my units had been low on MP's. I've had to keep my army relatively small just to keep it supplied.

[smokindave34]

In the center Pelton has held me to a standstill at the land bridge for the whole summer period so far. I finally managed some gains this turn and crossed the Dnepr at three points. The 1st tank corps is across in force south of Mogilev. I moved two of my tank armies (the ones that achieved the breakthrough in the north) out of the land bridge area last turn since they were being wasted waiting for a breakthrough that wasn't going to happen with all those elite panzers in the area.

[smokindave34]

Finally in the south Pelton has lots of room to pull back so there is very little action in this part of the front. This is what a typical turn looks like south of the marshes and I don't have the MP for many deliberate attacks.

[BrianG]

Just as a reminder:

What is your production and armaments?

[chaos45]

Yes I think we figured out about the minimum heavy industry needed to sustain the Soviet Army at full capability. Looks to be about 180 heavy industry, so you can tell in this game being below 180 slowed down the Soviet recovery.

You can prolly survive and keep a decent size army on abit under 180 if you cut planes an such but 180 really is what the Soviets need for full operations.

[chaos45]

Ehh Pelton is doing far better than historical dont really understand his complaints. his lines are actually quite strong for summer 1944 and he still has several major natural barriers to use in defense. Unless you knock the Soviets out of the war this is about the best situation the Germans could hope for in 1944.

I dont think he realizes that historically the Germans were losing the war very badly by June/July 1944 lol.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ehh Pelton is doing far better than historical dont really understand his complaints. his lines are actually quite strong for summer 1944 and he still has several major natural barriers to use in defense. Unless you knock the Soviets out of the war this is about the best situation the Germans could hope for in 1944.

I dont think he realizes that historically the Germans were losing the war very badly by June/July 1944 lol.

I can read, again this is not a movie or a book but a game.

As dave has pointed out German army by design gets weaker not because of good game play.

Also as dave has pointed out by design the Red Army gets stronger by design.

Morale goes up or down based on designer input not what has taken place on the battle field.

Why would German morale go down if they are doing far better then historical and why would Russian morale go up if they are doing far worse?

Its not because of how the players are doing.

If Moscow falls German morale by design drops in 43 and by design Russian morale increases

aka a 25% shift in CV strength?

Industry, land ect is simply window dressing that chaos just can not get his mind around as he has zip exp playing or even reading AAR's past 42.

As dave and myself know the game is a snowball and these effects can not model history for the simply FACT we are all Monday morning quarterbacks- thank god Chaos is not a game designer as his games would be uber boring. He be much better at writing a book.

Expecting to win just because history says you should is boring or that you should be in Berlin in May.

Why we play is to change history bro not be a mindless player.

[chaos45]

Pelton- Ive had the same complaints playing as the Soviets. Soviet NM drops in 1942 no matter what which allows the Germans to do very well if not better than historical just because of it.

If the Germans far, far outperformed historical its a possibility and I think this game models that well. Knock the Soviets out by the end of 1942 or else and the sudden death victory conidtions model that. If you dont hit 260 by April 1943 you are in for a slow inevitable defeat.

If you want a game where the Germans can maybe win the war you have to do strategic where you control the entire German war effort can make/change production and not make the strategic mistakes the Germans made historical. All basically things you have no control over in this game.

By playing this game you can change history so to speak you can slow down the Soviets ability to retake ground and most likely keep Berlin kicking for alittle extra time. I think in this game vs Dave you have a very good chance to last longer than historical. You didnt win in 1941/1942 so its just the result, effectively you lost the war by not winning it. Pretty reasonable outcome for the weaker aggressor in the world war.

Look at how many Soviet players you defeat in 1941 so the game models the Germans ability to win in 1941. The issue is if the Germans dont win in 1941 they get a last desperate shot in 1942 to carry the field- which is a long shot and requires again much, much better results than historical to win. By 1942 as long as the Soviets have men the allies would have given them everything else they needed to keep fighting. The USA made so much crap, so much......Once the USA was in the war the material/manpower advantage the allies had was so overwhelming no operations/tactical successes by the Germans/Japanese would win the war period.

Again National Morale its a massive issue to me in the game- the only way to take it out of the game would be to make combat losses historical. An as you have said the game system cant handle historical losses nor effectively model them.

To be realistic National Morale should be tied to battlefield success/failure- such as:

Make this a one time hits to all units on that side when they happen:
Soviet National Morale- drops by 5 points each for the loss of Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad-need realistic city combat/last stand modifiers for this to work though.
German National Morale-drops by 5 points for each 1 Million in total casualties they sustain- need realistic casualty modeling in the game for this to work though.

Honestly wish NM could be done away with and a better way found to model it. Such as give all units a bottom level of say 40-50 and let game play determine the rest- in other words units can gain from training/refit away from the lines or combat but dont automatically lose morale randomly for being above national morale.

I think the primary issue is the game takes so long to actually play that testing different methods to see if they are balanced take months if not years of testing in a game this scale. Effectively players/buyers of the game are the playtest.

[Peltonx]

Turn 165---Turns left: 46 with 12 being mud. Shortest Distance to Berlin: 590 miles
Hex to turn ratio: +25 ------------------------------------- VP: 159

GHC Armaments: 693,000 +3,000
Manpower in Pool: 288,000 -84,000
SHC OOB: 9,570,000 + 350,000
GHC OOB: 3,612,000 -50,000

The last five turns have been much better, GHC lost 2 panzer and 1 infantry division over 5 turns which is very good considering its August 1944.
The Manpower pool looks like it will hold up for at least the summer, which is only another 7 turns.
New divisions are starting to arrive

GHC has already garrisions both the Hun and Romanian capitals and the 2 trip citys.

GHC just need to keep from any major encirclements over the next 7 turns, this should give time during mud to set-up a solid line before blizzard weather hits in December.

2 fort lines have been dug one west of the Oder and another about 80 miles east of the Oder. I would like to have this zone a blanket of forts by the time Stavka gets to it in 45.