Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
ORIGINAL: Spooky
Don't worry, the site is not going to be closed [;)]
History goes out the window as soon as I enter orders and the random number generator gets involved in resolving the first turn. We can adhere closely to the realities of WW2, but we can't reproduce it. And why would we want to? I can go read books if I want that. The problem with this rule is that it crosses the line between adhering to the realities and enforcing history on a situation that differs from history.ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
It distorts the game historically.
This is why I am against research. I already know when I am going to get it and how good it will be. "Researching" in this case just isn't right imo. House rules can take care of this from my perspective: No additions to factories til after a plane goes into production, and no research beyond that conducted at the start.ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
As a player you know the capabilities of each aircraft and can decide well in advance which will be best suited for you needs… this is based on data based on hindsight. The Japanese didn’t know in January of 1942 how good the Frank was going to be, yet the player does. There were reasons why the Japanese continued to field Oscars throughout the war… political, military, economic, etc… free upgrade paths ignores these restraints. One can see these restrains when one looks at how changing leaders or moving unit from restricted commands works.
Restricting that is fine, as long as it doesn't interfere with making choices consistent with the events of the game. In my mind, the major problem here arises from a situation in which the Japanese do better than history and manage to get more advanced aircraft produced than they did historically. The "historical" limitations to airgroups becomes a major point for the Japanese player.ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
I think the present system is the developer’s way of stopping the old non-historical tactic in PacWar where every Allied Groups was fly P-40s by mid-1942. It is a very good tactic in the game, but could never have been done in real life.
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.
That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Well at least I now understand what the J players are grousing about. Maybe the limits reflect someone's judgment as to the ability of the Japanese to retrain air groups from the use of some pokey stunt plane to more current designs. In effect -- "sure you can build 1000 of model Z but you can only retrain pilots from model Y at a rate of ten pilots per month" or something. At an abstract level this would to a certain degree correctly reflect the fact that Japan's inability to train pilots was not merely limited to training new pilots but also for providing facilities, instructors, and fuel for familiarizing old pilots with new aircraft.
That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.
And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.
Upgrading groups outside the bounds of the controls put in place renders the entire Japanese production problems with aircraft gone which is just nuts. You want that, I guess we need to go through the aircraft and tone down all the late war japanese specs to reality levels instead of planned values. Also need to add about 50 more engine factory types just to bring you guys into check ... you want plane x, you need to retool to make the engine for it too. Most of Japan's aircraft were created out of combinations of parts due to production shortages.
Also need to add the hundreds of sub types and force you to research through them to get to the real production aircraft to prevent the gamey "i'm just going to convert everything to A7W's so I don't need to spend anything on other then those factories".
Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought. [:D]
Hmmm ... getting some new Essex-CV in replacement of sunk US CV - isn't it some kind of production reponse to the circumstances And please do not forget that the Pacific Theater was secondary compared with the European one - so the main US plane R&D and production decision were decided by how the war was going on in Europe and not in the Pacific.
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated........
Btw: as a point of humor, you might remember that I am a Axis Fanboy. That should give you pause for thought.
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Of course, that's not really what Japanese aficionados want to hear. They want to hear "Yes, you can build and man hundreds of Ki-84s by 1944 but you won't have to face F4Us on CVs until some time in 1945."
ORIGINAL: Spooky
No, I just want to be able to use the planes I build the way I want (within some limits) - is it that hard to understand [:@]
I am not talking about Ki-84 or F4U on CVs.
That said, it seems like the choice should be removed from player control. My concern is that given that the capabilities of the late war Japanese a/c are overstated, the early presence of these in large quantities, in combination of the absence of any way for the Allies to alter their production in response to the circumstances, detracts from the "simulation as alt history" end of the game. If the Allies can't plan flexibly in anticipation of substantially altered circumstances it's pretty much a non-starter as games or sims go.
All of this is based upon conditions which existed historically, but might not exist in game. As such, they aren't even worthy of consideration. You got it wrong when you said, "They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. " They didn't historically. You have no idea what they have in the game until it happens.ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
And thats why it is not an option. Japan brings new air groups online with new aircraft. They simply do not have the resources to do this and upgrade all the old aircraft as well. Couple this with their massive pilots shortage and you start getting a realistic feel for Japan. Toss that out the window and let you build any aircraft you want and assign them to any group you want and suddenly Japan is not only winning the game, but winning the war.
I am mildly surprised to hear you arguing the points that you have made in this thread. You are hereby reclassified to "Member: Axis Booster Club" status.
Japan simply did not have the skilled manpower, the production abilities, the raw goods, and so on and so on.
"Japanese Skilled Manpower On/Off"
"Japanese Massive Production Infrastructure On/Off"
"Japanese have lots of raw goods On/Off"
