Aircraft Weapons, their Pro Allied slant in WiTP

[DuckofTindalos]

Totally OT, but American Footballers throwing 300-400 YARDS?!?!?!? Not all at once I hope, or they'd need longer fields.[X(]

[anarchyintheuk]

Off topic on an off topic thread . . . but what if the zero had never had the range to go from Rabaul to Guadacanal in the first place. Do you think the IJN would have written off Guadacanal and saved itself the losses it and the IJA suffered? Was the time it gained by defending/trying to recapture Guadacanal worth the effort and the losses suffered? Interesting that a valued trait like endurence in an fighter might have led to a strategic defeat. Altho, I guess that attritional battle would have been fought elsewhere. Oops, I've started babbling.

[treespider]

Fuchida points out one very serious shortcoming of the japanese plan at Midway was the search pattern employed by the Japanese. They used the same search pattern at Ceylon and very nearly could have been handed their lunch there as well. In essence the Japanese used a single plane per arc as opposed to a two plane search. A failure of a single plane creates a gap in the coverage. In midway the radio failed and a plane was late in launching IIRC.

Had they had a two plane search pattern they very likely would have been able to confirm the presence of the US Carrier fleet prior to the decision for a second strike on Midway, thus probably altering the course of history.

[mdiehl]

No it wouldn't. It would show you the difference between having to fight and fly over a 1000 mile trip vs. sitting on the ground rested and waiting

Yer being a little disingenuous here. If you are attributing the battle losses to fatigue it;s a 560 mile trip, not a 1000 mile trip. And all you are doing is flatly ignoring the fact that the Japanese pilot is coming off of 8-10 hours rest vs the US pilot coming off of 3-6 hours rest. After about 5 days the difference is moot. And only one of these (the US pilots) is being subjected to 24-7 combat stress.

Yes, I've long been aware of your selective reading impediment. You should have that looked at sometime.

Your usual form of argumentation at its best and most typical.

Its also interesting that when a source is reputed to support something you are claiming, its indisputable....anyone who disagrees is an Axis Fanboy.

No, I'm claiming that you are a lousy source of information as to what Frank (or anybody else) said. As to Richard Frank, he's not here. I think you are putting emphasis in the text that reflects your bias, rather than what he wrote. I'd debate HIM as well if he characterized the US pilots at Henderson as well rested, as have you.

[treespider]

Totally OT, but American Footballers throwing 300-400 YARDS?!?!?!? Not all at once I hope, or they'd need longer fields.

No over the course of a game. In an average game a Quarterback may throw the ball for an accumulated average of say 250 yards. There are quite a number of games in which a quarterback may throw for 3-400 yards and the team still lose.

You can draw the same analogy to any team sport ....In hockey a forward may score three goals yet the team still loses.

[mdiehl]

Had they had a two plane search pattern they very likely would have been able to confirm the presence of the US Carrier fleet prior to the decision for a second strike on Midway, thus probably altering the course of history.

Perhaps so. It seems entirely plausible to me. I'd have to double check it against Bob Ballard's plot but a stronger recon plan might have helped alot.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Totally OT, but American Footballers throwing 300-400 YARDS?!?!?!? Not all at once I hope, or they'd need longer fields.

No over the course of a game. In an average game a Quarterback may throw the ball for an accumulated average of say 250 yards. There are quite a number of games in which a quarterback may throw for 3-400 yards and the team still lose.

You can draw the same analogy to any team sport ....In hockey a forward may score three goals yet the team still loses.

Yep I watched Vince Ferragamo throw a then record 509 yards in a losing effort against Chicago...
But thus REALLY is off topic! Sorry!

[mdiehl]

Off topic on an off topic thread . . . but what if the zero had never had the range to go from Rabaul to Guadacanal in the first place. Do you think the IJN would have written off Guadacanal and saved itself the losses it and the IJA suffered? Was the time it gained by defending/trying to recapture Guadacanal worth the effort and the losses suffered? Interesting that a valued trait like endurence in an fighter might have led to a strategic defeat. Altho, I guess that attritional battle would have been fought elsewhere. Oops, I've started babbling.

I don't see how they could have attempted to retain Guadalcanal absent the presence of long range fighters. The Betties suffered mightily and that was WITH escort. Had they known the size of the US force landed at Lunga, I suspect they would not have attempted to reinforce and drive the US out. Instead they'd have ratcheted up their efforts on New Georgia where any US counterthrust would have to fight well within operational range of everything that Rabaul could field and well-outside of US land based air.

[treespider]

Yep I watched Vince Ferragamo throw a then record 509 yards in a losing effort against Chicago...
But thus REALLY is off topic! Sorry!

Not really off topic. This analogy all started in response to the "If the Zero performed so great why did the Japanese lose Midway" line of thought.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Yer being a little disingenuous here. If you are attributing the battle losses to fatigue it;s a 560 mile trip, not a 1000 mile trip.

Nope, I'm attributing it to a 1000mile+ round trip I'm sorry, i forgot about the trouble you have interpreting printed text. To make sure there is no further misunderstanding, its a round trip of 1,130 miles

And all you are doing is flatly ignoring the fact that the Japanese pilot is coming off of 8-10 hours rest vs the US pilot coming off of 3-6 hours rest. After about 5 days the difference is moot. And only one of these (the US pilots) is being subjected to 24-7 combat stress.

I'm not ignoring it...i'm dismissing it because its a complete fabrication on your part.

Your usual form of argumentation at its best and most typical.

As is your ducking and weaving, selective interpretation of an author's text, not to mention fellow that of other posters.

No, I'm claiming that you are a lousy source of information as to what Frank (or anybody else) said.

Oh dear......I am crushed. not. Readers can make their own judgements on that as I stated from the beginning.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Yep I watched Vince Ferragamo throw a then record 509 yards in a losing effort against Chicago...
But thus REALLY is off topic! Sorry!

Not really off topic. This analogy all started in response to the "If the Zero performed so great why did the Japanese lose Midway" line of thought.

In a thread thatwas supposed to be about A/C weapons....[:D]

[mdiehl]

This analogy all started in response to the "If the Zero performed so great why did the Japanese lose Midway" line of thought

Well, if the Zero performed so great why did the Japanese lose 3 out of the 4 CV vs CV battles they fought (against the USN), and why did the Wildcats down more Zekes in these CV engagements than they lost?

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, if the TIE fighter was so maneuverable and fast, why did the Empire lose the battle of Yavin?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, if the TIE fighter was so maneuverable and fast, why did the Empire lose the battle of Yavin?

It was obviously the hand of God, er, excuse me... from the Force!!

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, if the TIE fighter was so maneuverable and fast, why did the Empire lose the battle of Yavin?

They Lost??!!!!
I've got to re-read my Star Watrs!!![:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

So we're not going to launch into another 200-post verbal battle over this too?

What a shame...

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So we're not going to launch into another 200-post verbal battle over this too?

What a shame...

Give it time....

[Big B]

Since I know now that no matter what we agree on here - the game won't change...I'm more interested in hitting post # 500

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So we're not going to launch into another 200-post verbal battle over this too?

What a shame...

Give it time....

Hey, we're ALREADY over 200 (well, for the thread)!

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So we're not going to launch into another 200-post verbal battle over this too?

What a shame...

Give it time....

Hey, we're ALREADY over 200 (well, for the thread)!

Just a few more!