Forlorn Hopes: The Japanese Respond

[ny59giants]

I may be about ready to through in the towel...

THROW [;)]

[John 3rd]

Threw...through...throw...hurl...heave...project...propel

Beyond being my Therapist you're also an ENGLISH Teacher!  I see how this is...

[flaggelant]

would it be an option to run KB with the oil TF over the long route (pacific)?
taking out shipping & escorting the transports at the same time sounds like a nice multifunctional mission

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow


The potential for a huge distraction is what I do not see - which is why I asked flagellant why he assumed this operation might draw Dan's forces to India. Specifically, if you assume Dan's style is Russian-like.

my assumption was mostly about supply & karachi, looking at the massive troop movements in the east,
there was a good chance that most of the western map was "empty" with no real defence force. Would this have been the case, then a march against the UK supply & troop reinforcementbase might have been possible.

seeing even chinese units in india takes away most of the optimism about light resitance, but it could have been a possibility

This would have resulted in a massive capture of supplies, cutting some from dan & ignoring more troops to poor in to that area. The massive troop, naval & air missions around china atm result in Dan burning supplies like hell (can anyone make a guess how many supplies are burned with flying 2K cap missions + bombers? i am curious about that one [&:]).
Not being able to bring sullpies in from India, and thus forcing everything to come from the west coast could have actually formed a logistical problem, with all the transports lost in Dan's prior missions (looking at supply burn rate and transporting time)

Added to that would be that the US CV's would have to escort the transports about half the way in order to prevent the at that point very precious supply to be sunk by KB, taking away half of dan's CAP force over china. which would have halted him somewhat to (dan with his all or nothing russian mentality would surely not start an operation without his CV's).

I'm not reading Dan's side of the AAR, so im not sure about his current supply level (and buffer), nor do i have an insight in his supply burning speed, but it has to be massive and cost some effort to maintain, without india's route. Not taking India back could have been an option, but it would cost time to work it out.
And time is all we're playing for right?

[John 3rd]

About 200,000 troops appear to be landing at Ningpo...

[Mark VII]

Getting only three AG's sunk was very lucky. IRL maybe three would of gotten away. Even if low on main gun ammo the Americans would of been blazing away at close range with 40 & 20 mikemike. That is what we call a target rich environment.

ORIGINAL: EWGuttag

John 3rd,

You aren't kidding about "runaway."  What a "nightmare" to face:  a fleet of troop barges (or whatever AG stands for) v. 3 BBs, 1 CA, 1 CL, 4 DDs, and 1 DMS.  Definitely a potential "slaughter in the making."

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

Getting only three AG's sunk was very lucky. IRL maybe three would of gotten away. Even if low on main gun ammo the Americans would of been blazing away at close range with 40 & 20 mikemike. That is what we call a target rich environment.

ORIGINAL: EWGuttag

John 3rd,

You aren't kidding about "runaway."  What a "nightmare" to face:  a fleet of troop barges (or whatever AG stands for) v. 3 BBs, 1 CA, 1 CL, 4 DDs, and 1 DMS.  Definitely a potential "slaughter in the making."

Yes, it really should have been a shooting gallery. The game system does not handle large numbers of ships like that very well in combat. It's sure a keeper of a screenshot, thought, John! [8D]

[ny59giants]

Beyond being my Therapist you're also an ENGLISH Teacher! I see how this is...

Actually, my father was a high school English teacher. He was also a Boy Scout leader and I spent many summers at Boy Scout camp as he was waterfront director (just outside of Rome, NY). I learned to hate those damn "deer flies" [:@] found in the Adirondack mtns of upstate New York. The size of a common house fly or larger and they would leave a nasty welt on you.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

Getting only three AG's sunk was very lucky. IRL maybe three would of gotten away. Even if low on main gun ammo the Americans would of been blazing away at close range with 40 & 20 mikemike. That is what we call a target rich environment.

ORIGINAL: EWGuttag

John 3rd,

You aren't kidding about "runaway."  What a "nightmare" to face:  a fleet of troop barges (or whatever AG stands for) v. 3 BBs, 1 CA, 1 CL, 4 DDs, and 1 DMS.  Definitely a potential "slaughter in the making."

Yes, it really should have been a shooting gallery. The game system does not handle large numbers of ships like that very well in combat. It's sure a keeper of a screenshot, thought, John! [8D]

There have been complaints about how effective a sctf does against a convoy-like tf since day one. Think the original complaints started w/ ForceZ.

[John 3rd]

The TF shown in the screenshot sunk a total of 4 AG but then another TF hit it during the day and sank a further 11.  

[John 3rd]

I will ask a serious question of the Forum. How does one keep playing when they simply realize that it is over? This is a serious question.

Played the turn and then sent this message with it to Dan:

Dan,

I think I may be done. I have reached a point of *uck it with the fight. My morale matches the Japanese at this point. What is the point? Unless something changes my mind I don't see the point of going on...

John

Commentary?

Ohhh...I took Bhopal and dropped the Forts at Bombay again.

[SierraJuliet]

John

it depends on what you and Dan want out of this game.  Maybe you chould take a step back and think about where Dan's morale might be at the moment.  You still appear to be making life very difficult for him..... is there a breaking point for the allied player even when they have such force to command.  Reminds me of some of the comments I've seen on the morale of the USN after they were being knocked around by the kamikaze onslaught.  Powerful they were but there were some real indicators that a breaking point was coming.  One thing this AAR has certainly hit on is that you cannot underestimate how devastated your opponent may be in comparison to your own feelings of devestation.    [8|]

[n01487477]

The truth is that the game doesn't adequately replicate the situation in china - the quality, the local loyalties, tribalism, the backstabbing etc (which reminds me of another little war)  in any adequate manner. Big-B has done the best he can with a broken system of regional allocation... still the Allies are uber-powerful at games end (something I always wondered about IRL) and we Japanese players must accept this(whether it is historical or not). Just like we can take most of India or Australia or NZ if allowed too ... (althought it would be nice if the game gave bigger penalties to the Allies in this instance). So Japan will likely always lose and unless you design a mod that gives more parity or the Allied player doesn't sit back in '42/43 and takes some on the chin or the initiative - then this is the likely outcome. It is a nice ego-boost for them (and no offence to any or all), but essentially it doesn't replicate the human element/nationalism of said conflict... it is a game after all, one hell of a game. Being the underdog is good enough for me and I'll keep grinding away until wars end...

Magnanimous in victory, stoic in defeat...

I just hope AE - gives some glimmer of hope to the Japanese, it would be a shame if all the additions only hamstrung JFB more by exercising realism beyond a game balance issue.

[String]

Well, John, I'd say the key to continuing is setting yourself a challenge. Something that interests you. For example, that challenge could be keeping the KB intact until the end of the war. For added excitement, keeping the KB intact until the end of the war AND using it to raid enemy supply lines.

Or, for example, getting most of the troops in India out of India and back to home defence, without the enemy noticing. A hard thing to do for sure, but possible I think with fragments.

And surely there are other things

[SierraJuliet]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

The truth is that the game doesn't adequately replicate the situation in china - the quality, the local loyalties, tribalism, the backstabbing etc (which reminds me of another little war)  in any adequate manner. Big-B has done the best he can with a broken system of regional allocation... still the Allies are uber-powerful at games end (something I always wondered about IRL) and we Japanese players must accept this(whether it is historical or not). Just like we can take most of India or Australia or NZ if allowed too ... (althought it would be nice if the game gave bigger penalties to the Allies in this instance). So Japan will likely always lose and unless you design a mod that gives more parity or the Allied player doesn't sit back in '42/43 and takes some on the chin or the initiative - then this is the likely outcome. It is a nice ego-boost for them (and no offence to any or all), but essentially it doesn't replicate the human element/nationalism of said conflict... it is a game after all, one hell of a game. Being the underdog is good enough for me and I'll keep grinding away until wars end...

Magnanimous in victory, stoic in defeat...

I just hope AE - gives some glimmer of hope to the Japanese, it would be a shame if all the additions only hamstrung JFB more by exercising realism beyond a game balance issue.

I was talking with my father-in-law this evening about the game and what I find interesting about it. I think he had a hard time trying to fathom why anyone would want to take on a game with the likelihood of winning being slim at the best from the outset [&:] After engaging in some discussion on the pros and cons of tactics and strategies employed by a couple of humans playing against each other he came up with this strategy.... couldn't you get somebody to come in and assassinate the emperor, wouldn't that change things? [X(] Well what do you say to that?

[n01487477]

I was trying to come up with something pithy ... but instead ... gob smacked I'd ...

Tell your father-in-law, in an ethnically homogeneous society which believed their Emperor was divine, that is going to be awfully hard to achieve...[;)]
I remember here in Korea(there are still not too many foreigners here)... there was a bank robbery(very uncommon)...the suspect was a Caucasian...they caught the guy in about 20 mins [:D] Hard to hide and flee when you stick out like a thumb. 
And I'm sure if the Emperor had been killed, the military (which really held the reigns of power) would have used that to further their war plans. And I don't want to imagine what might have happened...


Not to go too far off topic and hijack John's AAR too much ... (and definitely NOT a big fan of show tunes) ... but MAN OF LA MANCHA does come to mind when I think of the JFB credo...

To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go
To right the unrightable wrong --> ok this line can be deleted!
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star
This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far

You can't talk to civilians(non-witp'ers) about this game ... they just don't get it !

[Nemo121]

The key is that winning is an irrelevance. What matters is playing skillfully. Its like Bushido. Obedience and trying matters, success will or won't come but the true follower of the way will accept either victory or failure without surprise or indignation.
 
Play skillfully until the game ends, however it might end. THAT should be your goal.
 

As a sidenote... THAT was my problem with the whole Indian gambit. It was bound to end in something like this and, more importantly, it wasn't the most artful use of your troops possible. Winning and being showy are irrelevancies which exogenous factors may render impossible to achieve BUT you can ALWAYS play more artfully this turn than you did last turn, this month than you did last month and this game than you did last game.

In the end I don't view that Damian or Hartwig are my opponents ( and this isn't a dishonour to either of them ). I view them mostly as the means by which I  can be pushed to MY limit in order to force the most skillfull play possible. I don't play against THEM, I play against what I think I should be capable of.

E.g. I currently feel that while my game against Damian is going reasonably well I have made 3 to 4 serious errors which mean I am about 3 months behind where I should be. So, in-game its going well but, in reality, I amn't playing up to the standard I would aim to achieve, am identifying the reasons for those errors and, hopefully, will learn from them.
 
When push comes to shove your ONLY true opponent is yourself --- or, more accurately, what you should be achieving.
 
 
So, will you lose? Yes. Will you find it difficult to win any victory in this game, no matter how small? Yes.
 
Does this rob you of the opportunity to play skillfully? Absolutely not. You can play a sublimely skillfull game and still lose every single battle and THAT IS WORTH DOING since winning or losing are mere ephemera in any case.

[John 3rd]

Thanks Guys.

Nemo--at times I want to throttle you and at other times I want to hug you!  Your a person trained in this field...am I Narcissistic AND bi-polar??!!  [:D][8D][:D]  Could be a possibility... You provide cogent and painfully blunt advice as always! [:D]

Damian your help with Michael enabled to me to get this far in the game with a useless economy that I screwed up.

SJ--You have been a pleasant new addition to the AAR and I appreciate your commentary.  Your Father will never understand the fanatics of WitP until he actually plays!  This is why our wives, girlfriends, and mothers will never fathom our obsession regarding the game.

String--There is no chance (other then by Emily.Yina that I can pull any of those troops out of India.  The only option I have to change face and attack with everything East instead of West.  I truly thought that this attack would force Dan to pause and redeploy a good number of troops west.  Sadly and totally wrong on that account.  Ahhhh...well it has been fun to watch.

Seriously I thank you guys for everything.  Maybe I just need some downtime to mentally regroup.  Perhaps I am a bit TOO Japanese in thinking because I keep THINKING he cannot or won't do that--he doesn't have the troops, planes, ships, manpower, etc...but then...

Am getting a slow start this morning because we got a beautiful 14" of heavy snow and am taking it easy.  Need to read what Dan wrote in his morning email.

[Q-Ball]

I am approaching the end of 1944, and my outlook is similarly bleak as Japan, I take satisfaction in the large price the Allies have paid to get this far, much greater than historical.

You probably can't wait to read Dan's AAR, but I think it's OK to tell you that you had him seriously freaked out back in 1942. Dan was feeling beaten a couple times. He was pretty convinced Australia was completely lost.

[Nemo121]

John, yeah you could be both but I doubt you are [:D]

As to my advice... Well it's like i tell my patients. "I promise to always give you an honest answer but that means you often won't like what I tell you."

In the end though we benefit more from good advice than pleasant advice... and so I make my choices accordingly.

[EWGuttag]

John 3rd,
 
Do enjoy the snowfall and make sure to take a "deep breath."  And the answer to your question is this:  are you still having fun and/or getting something important out of continuting on with Dan, even with what looks like to you as a "hopeless" situation?  If not, throwing in the towel (after what looks like to me as a "great fight" with Dan) isn't a bad choice.  One thing to remember is this is a game, not the end of the world.  (And from your other posts, you've had to deal with much more significant issues than this.)  Also, I suspect you've got more WitP games in you after this one with Dan is over.   Most importantly, please be at peace with yourself, whatever you decide, and God Bless.  And definitely enjoy that snowfall!