PzB vs Wobbly - Clash of Steel

[aztez]

I think the game should go on. UBER CAP or not the biggest problem with the PBEM's is the fact that once allied player can give some payback most of these games stop.

Since Wobbly & co. took repeat beatings I think the Japanese side should not end the game because it took an gamble and once in a while lost it. Yes, KB got decimated but it was the players choice to battle it out. Now that the allied have control of seas I think Japanese side should start looking other ways to compesate the loss.

[Redd]

ORIGINAL: pauk

[:(]

o my God.... (but this would happen sooner or later, anyway).

I understand your position, however keep in mind that lessons from your AAR are priceless, imortal and maybe will (hopefully) have impact for the future patches.

It would be nice if you could continue game...

What he said. [:(]

Reading both of the AARs covering this game is what motivated me to drop UV like a hot potato and get WitP. I'd hate to see it end so abruptly. I understand your negative feelings on do-overs, that is the honorable way to go. But many of us will be more than sad to see the story end here. You are helping to illustrate the shortcomings of the model at the time when it will do the most good.

I implore you to keep the game going. Either take the do-over as suggested, or fight on with what you have left, it is of course your call. The further you go with the game, the more information is available to the developers. If you want, you can make it your personal crusade against the uber cap. A lot of people are reading this, and showing the problems through gameplay is much more constructive than some post in the main forum titled "Waaah, my planes don't work right." You'll be providing a much needed service to the community by taking this baby into '45, hopefully culminating with the invasion of Japan, just to see how it goes.


We await the return of the Emperors' right hand man! [&o][&o][&o]



P.S. I was horrified when you wrote that you were going to sortie the KB and then saw the map. His carriers were waaaay too close. I understand that after carrying the biggest stick in town for two game years, it's hard to adjust to the new order in '44. You have to think like the allies do in '42, don't go anywhere with the KB that is within a weeks sailing of the allied sledgehammer.[;)]

[timtom]

Tough luck, John. I know you're probably feeling absolute despondent right now (speaking from personal experience here, trust me [:)]), but my advice would be to take a few days away from the game and then come back and have a fresh look at the situation. I'm sure you'll find that you still have a few good cards up your sleeve.

[FeurerKrieg]

Don't give up John! At least your turns won't take quite as much time to do now right?

I still think you've done a great job thus far and Andy will still have a tough time making his advances. One of your weapons has been disabled for now, but you still have surface assets and LBA.

[Rob Brennan UK]

ORIGINAL: veji1

Arghh....;;

Don't know what to say... At least now you can focus on real life... Still, would it have been different had you been playing with Niks mod ? You would certainly have lost that battle, but maybe not all carriers, and have damaged or sunk quite a few... god... This kills half the expectation I have for this whole board... I hope we win in rugby otherwise it'll be a crappy Week End...

I hope your French .. Else its been a bad end to the 6 nations

PzB.. I would like to see this continue, you will probably need a break to calm down and have a rest from this mammoth game.

That CAP was nuts ! .. glad i'm playing Nik mod , vanilla is just way too one sided .. firstly invulnerable jap cap then invulnerable allied cap.

Other than that ! .. ooh ..

[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o] Whatever you decide , thank you for sharing this very memorable game, It's been a cracking read for long time ..

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Dont give up! You still have us, your supporters! Now time to gather remnants of your fleet, save as many of them as possible and prepare to defend next bases!

[Fishbed]

yep tough times [:(] but we're still here!

And by the way, everyone is not dead yet - maybe several hundreds jap LB may prove to be a good dissuation enough for Andy not to go on pursuit...

[CapAndGown]

[X(][X(][:o][:o][:(][:(]

Sorry to see this result. All you defensive plans have come to naught because of a decision to go for a medium value target of opportunity.

But I do have some comments.

We all knew about the Uber CAP. Much of PzB's defensive planning had been focused on how to deal with this problem. And here we see that had PzB stuck to plan, he could have dealt with it. Notice the extraordinarily large number of Hellcats blown away in just one day of combat. Also notice that Andy lost all these Hellcats even though they outnumbered the defending fighters. And these defending fighters were not even the best fighters that PzB can field--they are only Zekes which are not nearly as good as Tojo's, George's and Tony's.

If, instead of the KB facing off against the allied Death Star, this kind of airbattle had occured using LBA during an attempted invasion of the Marianas or Palaus, Andy's Uber CAP would have been greatly thinned out after the first day of battle. Should that battle continue for one or two days more, with additional Jap fighters being flown in from staging bases, the allied CAP would end up as a shadow of its former self and become ripe for a counter stroke from the KB.

My real question is: under such circumstances, that is, not losing the KB before LBA has even had a chance to play a role, what chances would the allies have in succeeding in pulling off a long range invasion that can only be supported by carriers and unescorted bombers? Does it not seem possible that a Japanese defense is entirely within the realm of the possible as long as the KB is not lost before the decisive battle?

At any rate: All Hail the PzB! [&o]

[PzB74]

Back from apartment hunting - a much bigger success than the last WitP turn [;)]

Thanx for the support guys, I'm not really devastated. Took a rash decision to strike - something which
I've managed to avoid for a very long time - and stumbled.

The truth is that it's starting to get a bit hard to play WitP each and every day for many years.
With new and important missions ahead I'm feeling kinda short of energy. Loosing 8-9 carriers for naught
is a most horrific achievement [8|] No commander should be allowed to go on after such a catastrophe.

Desk job in Tokyo perhaps [:'(]

I agree with Cap & Gown - should have stuch to the original plan but I had a very good feeling that Andys
carriers had burned most of their fuel and missions. Andy also confirmed this, but he obviously decided to
stay around for another few days. Valiantly he suggested that I could replay yesterdays turn but I don't think
that's the honorable thing to do either.

The cause for this 'most unfortunate event' is that I finally gave in to my impulses, getting a bit tired and
unconcentrated at times. Great disasters are never the most glorious moment to throw in the towel, but they are
often the culmination of a series of events which leads to a certain conclusion. (Usually not a good one)

Wobbly reached this stage with the frustration of the Indian Campaign - Dave got fed up with the game mechanics
and Ken had Internet gremlins. These players played the game for 4-12 months each. So I kinda feel that a replacement
would do me good! Pretty sure we could find a competent Axis fanboy for the task? Since all you loyal followers
are around to support the campaign things would continue like before! I could stick around and provide advice.

That's just my thoughts; I don't really want to quit - but my feelings advice me to do so. At least for a while.
What do you think, is playing on without heart and soul really the thing to do at this point...?

Again, appreciate all the fabolous support - you guys are the reason I've kept on for so long [8D]

[Nomad]

So, considering that with some free help and equipment I was able to cure my internet problems( somehting I didn't think would happen ), do I now need to relieve you for a while John? [8D]

[wobbly]

ORIGINAL: aztez

I think the game should go on. UBER CAP or not the biggest problem with the PBEM's is the fact that once allied player can give some payback most of these games stop.

Since Wobbly & co. took repeat beatings I think the Japanese side should not end the game because it took an gamble and once in a while lost it. Yes, KB got decimated but it was the players choice to battle it out. Now that the allied have control of seas I think Japanese side should start looking other ways to compesate the loss.

A big difference for me and the other allied players was that there was (well supposedly - and this is evidence) light at the end of the tunnel. PzB's biggest hammer was always the carrier fleet. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for him.
He has done fantastically well (bugger it [:D] ) but he has very little in the way of flexibilty now.

[Nomad]

The only problem with that wobbly is that every game is going to reach a point where Japan can no longer see a light at the end of the tunnel. Does that mean that all games end when Japan loses the first big battle? It doesn't seem right, plus John still has a very strong position, he is just a bit short on flexibility.

[rroberson]

Frankly, this is every allied player's fear. Once the game gets to 43/44 Japan's player bounce's out of the game (not you PZB you have hung in there amazingly long). It is my hope that PZB hangs in there. I love his narrative. If he can't then maybe several of us can take up arms to keep this game going. I really want to see how it ends .

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: PzB

That's just my thoughts; I don't really want to quit - but my feelings advice me to do so. At least for a while.
What do you think, is playing on without heart and soul really the thing to do at this point...?

Wobbly reached this stage with the frustration of the Indian Campaign - Dave got fed up with the game mechanics
and Ken had Internet gremlins. These players played the game for 4-12 months each. So I kinda feel that a replacement
would do me good! Pretty sure we could find a competent Axis fanboy for the task? Since all you loyal followers
are around to support the campaign things would continue like before! I could stick around and provide advice.
Again, appreciate all the fabolous support - you guys are the reason I've kept on for so long [8D]

I totally understand your position. I intend play my PBEM games but wonder if I going to be able "play with soul and hart". I don't have problems with kicking my *ss: several players take me beating in UV (Honda, Oleg, pfnognoff) so i'm used to be beaten [:D].

My only concern is that game engine simply doesn't provide Japanese chances to have their 5 minutes in the game (successful operation Leyte, for example). I'm afraid that my 90 exp pilots will be killed like chickens cause exp is at 3rd place in A2A factors (speed, firepover) or maybe even 4th place.... and it is pointless to invest time and effort useless....

Anyway, i feel that this AAR MUST continue and if you can't going on (i understand that you are exausted - i feels exactly like you in my game against Andy and it is only August 42! plus you have to be concentrate on your new job) i'm very tempted to jump in "Defender of the Empire" boots...

Spring is coming close, i would have less time to spare for WiTP... but then again this AAR have to continue (we Japs fanboys need our whining corner[:D]) cause i feel that if devs cant get info from the "other side" all future patches would be in Allied favour...

So i'm really tempted (and someone have to stop this stubborn Scot[;)][8|])

[PzB74]

Nice to hear from you again Al [:)] You're right about the light...I've felt the strain of war for a while!
When I go to bed I still see images of burning Zekes and US heavies in my head. Wake up tired and exhausted
in the morning still thinking about what can be done to win the war <G> I really could do without this for a while [:'(]

The loss of the carriers is a big blow as it will allow Andy's birdfarms to conduct strike missions into
the heart of the empire as long as he keeps >6 hexes away from any major air bases (Zeke range). If Andy
plays like I think he will only 1-2 cv's and a couple of cvls will remain of the KB + 5 cve's. 3 new cv's
will arrive within 3 months or so. Could be enough to create a quality carrier formation - there are still
ample amounts of expert CAGs left. So the battle is far from lost - it just became more complicated.

The invasion of the Palaus and Marianas would be the high point of this campaign Jap carriers or not. The ability
to make large amounts of LBA available in the right place at the right time would be the crucial element. I've always
stated that it would be suicide to engage the US carriers mano el mano (and now I had to show you why [8|]). Now Japan
HAS to concentrate on the only valid strategy: how to make LCU and LBA defeat carrier and amph power. In reality he KB
becomes a Democles sword by 1944!...so much to loose and so little to gain!

So here's what I would like to suggest: I try to save the remains of the fleet and re-organize according to new doctrines and
hire Ken as Second in Command. Whenever I run out of steam or time he can take over for me and vice versa!
This would make it simpler for me to concentrate on my new priorities and remain in the game. At the same time
the game could be played to the end: something which has always been one of my foremost objectives [:)]

What do you think about this Ken? Pauk has also offered his services - (thx Pauk).

Suggestions/advice from the rest of you: could this work?

[PzB74]

Forwarded my ideas to Andy - his reply:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The plan sounds ok a few little things for you to ponder...

San Jacinto ate a bomb not sure how but one of your Judy's must have got
through she will live it's a minor hit

As for following up its going to be difficult More or less all my CV's are a
ZERO ops points now my CVL's are ok but they have limited flight groups.

I will be trying

This does open up a lot more strategic possibilities for the Allies things I
had ruled out are now back on the table.

You are still 2:1 ahead on points

Of course my LBA will be back in the game to try and finish you cripples !!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've sent the next turn to Andy and lots of action has been taken - but first some hard facts:

Some 243 US carrier ac were shot down including 171 Hellcats, 46 Helledivers and 26 Avengers.
Some 516 Jap carrier + 91 land based fighters were lost including: 9 Rufe, 26 Zero, 239 Zeke,
150 Jill and 117 Judy.

Some 50 carrier ac transferred to nearby bases.

Damage to IJN carriers were less crippling than first assumed:
I've created a large TF and gathered most of the cripples - I'm hoping the enemy will concentrate
on this group.

Cripples
Name---- --Sys- -Flt-Fire-Speed------
BB Haruna - 54 - 76 - 29
CS Mizuho - 71 - 30 - 27
CV Amagi - 98 - 64 - 49
Cvl Ryuho - 99 - 83 - 49

The Unryo and Kaga have already been sunk. If we're lucky 'only' 2 carriers, 1 cvl, 1 cs and 1 BB will be lost.
The remaining carriers have been divided into small TFs that will try to reach Ulithi.

Shokaku - 51 - 22 - 49 - 16
Zuikaku - 60 - 24 - 30 - 13
Akagi - 57 - 49 - 49 - 13
Katsuragi - 60 - 22 - 49 - 13
Taiho - 16 - 44 - 49 - 18
Chiyoda - 31 -25 - 24 - 20
Ryujo - 3 - 35 - 3 - 16

If we can salvage all of these carriers the backbone of the KB should be safe.

I've ordered all available Bettys and Oscars to strike out at 10 hexes from several bases.
Some 300 ac are ready at Palau (size 6 af with air HQ). Fighters on Ulithi have been put on
max range and 40% CAP. 150 fighters and bombers are ready at Woleai + some Bettys, fighters
and army bombers in NG and on Truk.

2 surface combat TFs have been formed and will attempt to hit the enemy carriers. Guessing that
Andy is low on OP and fuel I sent them one hex south by south west. They will then retreat at flank
speed towards Ulithi.

Several other tfs have been sent into the area including a replenishment group consisting of 2 fast AOs,
the mini Hosho and 2 escorts. An escort carrier group with 4 cves and 4 destroyers will move just north
of Woleai with 120 ac. If Andy goes for it his carriers will react to this group, drawing then northwards.
The group with crippled ships will move 2 hexes to the north.

Andy's carriers will only have to move 1 hex to the north to come within range of Oscar IIs and Bettys
plus 150 ac at Woleai. A move/reaction of 5 hexes will take him within Zeke range of the Marianas. Hundreds
of my best fighters as well as more army bombers are ready here.

Ok, let's pray to the gods of war for some much deserved payback! [&o]
If we can put 3 enemy carriers out of action before the decisive battles I'd say this catastrophe would be
worthwhile!

Defeat and counterstrike!?

[PzB74]

Andy played it all safe and didn't move his carriers a single hex to the north....
Well, apart from one of our surface combat groups that didn't return as ordered, no further
damage has been done. Unfortunately a Kongo class bb was sunk. The light carrier Ryuho also
gave up and sank.

Fires in our damaged carriers have been brought (almost) under control and in a couple of days
5 cvs and 2 cvls will enter Ulithi. Give our repair yards 3-4 months and we should be able to field
9 carriers, 3 cvls and 7-8 cves.

In the meantime we have to delay the enemy advance as much as possible and train our LBA pilots to
even higher standards.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/14/44

Air Combat

Day Air attack on TF at 53,75

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 29
TBM Avenger x 42

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Mikuma
DD Niizuki
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 53,75

Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 8

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 53,75

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 5
TBM Avenger x 7

Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The few counter strikes were slaughtered by enemy CAP:

Day Air attack on TF at 60,86

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 2
P-38J Lightning x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
LCT LCT-327
LCT LCT-323

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,80

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 3

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 95

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 3 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,80 - remnants flying from NG

Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 21

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 129

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y Judy: 12 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 60,86

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 2

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 7
Spitfire VIII x 3
Kittyhawk III x 6
P-38J Lightning x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,80

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 129

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 2 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Dagua at 51,81

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
Ki-21 Sally x 13

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 31
Spitfire VIII x 5
Kittyhawk III x 9
P-40N Warhawk x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk III: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-40N Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
AP Koolama
AP Empire Tamar

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Give our repair yards 3-4 months and we should be able to field
9 carriers, 3 cvls and 7-8 cves.

In the meantime we have to delay the enemy advance as much as possible and train our LBA pilots to
even higher standards.

That's the spirit...!

Although is more than clear that remains of KB can't face with US carriers (the whole KB couldn't do that) you still have chance to delay Andy.

He is now streched all over the Pacific and that requires good administration skills. His ground units are disrupted and lots of squads are disabled so it will take some time for him to gather enough troops for further advance.

Your fleet can hide behind numerous bases in NG and PI (if he choose to continue with this strategy) while you slowly rebuilding your navy and air force.

Use the same strategy before "Midway"... leave AFs empty, let Andy to raid them with CVs if he wish fortify your troops there - send reinforcements if needed - keeping the frontier is a must IMO. Only Army can delay (stop?) Allies now and you have more than enough troops for that. And remember, Allies would have send troops long way back to recuperate them...

This game is far from the end...Banzai! (well, actually.... we shall defend on the beaches,etc, etc, we shall never surrender..)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

[X(][X(][:o][:o][:(][:(]

Sorry to see this result. All you defensive plans have come to naught because of a decision to go for a medium value target of opportunity.

But I do have some comments.

We all knew about the Uber CAP. Much of PzB's defensive planning had been focused on how to deal with this problem. And here we see that had PzB stuck to plan, he could have dealt with it. Notice the extraordinarily large number of Hellcats blown away in just one day of combat. Also notice that Andy lost all these Hellcats even though they outnumbered the defending fighters. And these defending fighters were not even the best fighters that PzB can field--they are only Zekes which are not nearly as good as Tojo's, George's and Tony's.

If, instead of the KB facing off against the allied Death Star, this kind of airbattle had occured using LBA during an attempted invasion of the Marianas or Palaus, Andy's Uber CAP would have been greatly thinned out after the first day of battle. Should that battle continue for one or two days more, with additional Jap fighters being flown in from staging bases, the allied CAP would end up as a shadow of its former self and become ripe for a counter stroke from the KB.

My real question is: under such circumstances, that is, not losing the KB before LBA has even had a chance to play a role, what chances would the allies have in succeeding in pulling off a long range invasion that can only be supported by carriers and unescorted bombers? Does it not seem possible that a Japanese defense is entirely within the realm of the possible as long as the KB is not lost before the decisive battle?

At any rate: All Hail the PzB! [&o]

We all knew about the Uber CAP.

After the endless beatings myself and a few tough skins took trying to make this known I'd just like to say that NO, we all did not know about this. Apparently it was a myth I started in beta. Here is a little flashback thread...lots of fun.

Blast from the Past

And speaking of beatings, I will take over as the Japanese if PzB can't go on...ie. if he was beheaded or something.[:D] I love defending and would like to see how the supply situation is in the DEI at this stage of the game.

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Nice to hear from you again Al [:)] You're right about the light...I've felt the strain of war for a while!
When I go to bed I still see images of burning Zekes and US heavies in my head. Wake up tired and exhausted
in the morning still thinking about what can be done to win the war <G> I really could do without this for a while [:'(]

The loss of the carriers is a big blow as it will allow Andy's birdfarms to conduct strike missions into
the heart of the empire as long as he keeps >6 hexes away from any major air bases (Zeke range). If Andy
plays like I think he will only 1-2 cv's and a couple of cvls will remain of the KB + 5 cve's. 3 new cv's
will arrive within 3 months or so. Could be enough to create a quality carrier formation - there are still
ample amounts of expert CAGs left. So the battle is far from lost - it just became more complicated.

The invasion of the Palaus and Marianas would be the high point of this campaign Jap carriers or not. The ability
to make large amounts of LBA available in the right place at the right time would be the crucial element. I've always
stated that it would be suicide to engage the US carriers mano el mano (and now I had to show you why [8|]). Now Japan
HAS to concentrate on the only valid strategy: how to make LCU and LBA defeat carrier and amph power. In reality he KB
becomes a Democles sword by 1944!...so much to loose and so little to gain!

So here's what I would like to suggest: I try to save the remains of the fleet and re-organize according to new doctrines and
hire Ken as Second in Command. Whenever I run out of steam or time he can take over for me and vice versa!
This would make it simpler for me to concentrate on my new priorities and remain in the game. At the same time
the game could be played to the end: something which has always been one of my foremost objectives [:)]

What do you think about this Ken? Pauk has also offered his services - (thx Pauk).

Suggestions/advice from the rest of you: could this work?

Just what does being second in command mean? It would be hard to do a few turns here and there. A player really has to immerse himself into each game. If I will be taking over sometime in the future and running the game for an extended period of time then yes, but not to do sporatic turns.