WAR IN THE MEDITERRANEAN: Speedy vs Pauk

[DuckofTindalos]

And what about the He-111, the first torpedo-carrying variant predates the war... and the He-115, for that matter...

[Speedysteve]

At this rate every darn Axis plane will be able to carry torps. Don't forget Mitchells and Marauders did too oh and Liberators[;)]

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, there were plans for a torpedo-carrying version of the Stuka...[:D]

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

At this rate every darn Axis plane will be able to carry torps. Don't forget Mitchells and Marauders did too oh and Liberators[;)]

Maybe even the ME109t (which with some "small" modifications in design and a bigger engine could have carreid four (4) torpedoes) and a pizza oven.

[DuckofTindalos]

And the kitchen sink...

[kokubokan25]

Speaking seriously:

Yes, in my first version only the S-79T (italian) and Beaufort (british) can carry torpedoes. (land based of course)
But in the 1.1 version the situation is very different, now the Beaufighter X (british) and SM84 (italian) can also carry torpedoes.
In the upcoming (i hope) 1.2 version, the He-111 (german) and some of the Wellington III groups will carry too.
No more placid walkings with TFs around Bomb Alley.

[Nikademus]

I'm not sure thats a good idea, having seen the effect of torpedo proliferation in WitP. For the usual reasons, the Japanese side gets focused on with this issue but it was also present on the Allied side in the form of the Beufort......it had a high enough production rate Allied players could massacre shipping around forward areas far more quickly than the RL timescale. I ended up severely restricting the torp Beufort varient in NM versions to cut down on this.

I think having too many torp equipped planes in the Med scen would be even worse because unlike RL, air search and attack with airpower is so much more efficient. Warships and merchants won't be able to operate anywhere near the hot spots.

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, that's what happens when you have a war in a bath tub...

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,
 
As Pauk says the RN rule and RM sucks[:'(]
 
I have ordered both my BB TF's interesting assignments tomorrow - 1 to  shell a base on Crete which  is housing damaged ships from our first naval battle and the other to shell enemy troops at Tobruk.
 
Tobruk will fall soon I think and with it this campaign version will end since only a battered Bde and Division will stand between the Axis and Egypt then.

[Nikademus]

get the pkg Speedo?

[blam0]

I'm kinda struggling with some of the complaints about the speed of the axis advance in NA. Isn't that basically what happened? Given enough supplies (which I'll get to in a min) Rommel seemed to be able to root the Brits out of any position they put themselves into. Everything I've ever read suggested that the only thing that ever stopped Rommel before 10/42 was a shortage of supplies and/or tanks.

If there was a flaw with the combat model, I'd say it would be the complete inability to disengage, say a "trave" versus "attack" speed of movement. This would allow the British to retreat, and "prepare positions while the Axis resupplies.

Regarding supplies, I am under the impression that Malta and British subs were the major obstacles to the Axis getting the level of supplies required to sustain operations. Given that there was no will to "deal with" Malta appropriately by Hitler, i.e., invade, then Malta should be a major thorn in the side of the Axis. Maybe there needs to be a resource point there, and maybe the Italians just need fewer planes...I'm not sure from this perspective.


Just my .02

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

get the pkg Speedo?

Sure did bud

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: blam0

I'm kinda struggling with some of the complaints about the speed of the axis advance in NA. Isn't that basically what happened? Given enough supplies (which I'll get to in a min) Rommel seemed to be able to root the Brits out of any position they put themselves into. Everything I've ever read suggested that the only thing that ever stopped Rommel before 10/42 was a shortage of supplies and/or tanks.

If there was a flaw with the combat model, I'd say it would be the complete inability to disengage, say a "trave" versus "attack" speed of movement. This would allow the British to retreat, and "prepare positions while the Axis resupplies.

Regarding supplies, I am under the impression that Malta and British subs were the major obstacles to the Axis getting the level of supplies required to sustain operations. Given that there was no will to "deal with" Malta appropriately by Hitler, i.e., invade, then Malta should be a major thorn in the side of the Axis. Maybe there needs to be a resource point there, and maybe the Italians just need fewer planes...I'm not sure from this perspective.


Just my .02

Hi,

Always good to have discussion.

I agree with you in that the main Axis problem when they had the initiative in NA was the lack of supply and fuel caused by Allied efforts and Italian inneficiency.

However in game terms this is just not the case.

For example in 2 weeks (15th January 1942) game time the Axis are at Tobruk with only a 1/2 organised Bde and Division in front of them to Egypt. The ability to shock attack incessantly and the poor ground modelling (IMO) mean a Blitzkreig of un-approachable proportions can be made by the Axis.

Also as you mention supply and fuel can easily be sent to NA in quantities Rommel would've dreamed of[;)]

[blam0]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: blam0

I'm kinda struggling with some of the complaints about the speed of the axis advance in NA. Isn't that basically what happened? Given enough supplies (which I'll get to in a min) Rommel seemed to be able to root the Brits out of any position they put themselves into. Everything I've ever read suggested that the only thing that ever stopped Rommel before 10/42 was a shortage of supplies and/or tanks.

If there was a flaw with the combat model, I'd say it would be the complete inability to disengage, say a "trave" versus "attack" speed of movement. This would allow the British to retreat, and "prepare positions while the Axis resupplies.

Regarding supplies, I am under the impression that Malta and British subs were the major obstacles to the Axis getting the level of supplies required to sustain operations. Given that there was no will to "deal with" Malta appropriately by Hitler, i.e., invade, then Malta should be a major thorn in the side of the Axis. Maybe there needs to be a resource point there, and maybe the Italians just need fewer planes...I'm not sure from this perspective.


Just my .02

Hi,

Always good to have discussion.

I agree with you in that the main Axis problem when they had the initiative in NA was the lack of supply and fuel caused by Allied efforts and Italian inneficiency.

However in game terms this is just not the case.

For example in 2 weeks (15th January 1942) game time the Axis are at Tobruk with only a 1/2 organised Bde and Division in front of them to Egypt. The ability to shock attack incessantly and the poor ground modelling (IMO) mean a Blitzkreig of un-approachable proportions can be made by the Axis.

Also as you mention supply and fuel can easily be sent to NA in quantities Rommel would've dreamed of[;)]

Can this be solved simply with a HR of no more than 1 Shock attack per x days?

Can the decay rate of supplies and/or the cost of moving it overland be modded? IIRC, Rommel complained incessantly that the cost of moving the fuel by road was almost not worth the effort. Maybe by altering the decay rate, the extended lines of supply can be more accurately emulated.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: blam0

I'm kinda struggling with some of the complaints about the speed of the axis advance in NA. Isn't that basically what happened? Given enough supplies (which I'll get to in a min) Rommel seemed to be able to root the Brits out of any position they put themselves into. Everything I've ever read suggested that the only thing that ever stopped Rommel before 10/42 was a shortage of supplies and/or tanks.

If there was a flaw with the combat model, I'd say it would be the complete inability to disengage, say a "trave" versus "attack" speed of movement. This would allow the British to retreat, and "prepare positions while the Axis resupplies.

Regarding supplies, I am under the impression that Malta and British subs were the major obstacles to the Axis getting the level of supplies required to sustain operations. Given that there was no will to "deal with" Malta appropriately by Hitler, i.e., invade, then Malta should be a major thorn in the side of the Axis. Maybe there needs to be a resource point there, and maybe the Italians just need fewer planes...I'm not sure from this perspective.


Just my .02

Hi,

Always good to have discussion.

I agree with you in that the main Axis problem when they had the initiative in NA was the lack of supply and fuel caused by Allied efforts and Italian inneficiency.

However in game terms this is just not the case.

For example in 2 weeks (15th January 1942) game time the Axis are at Tobruk with only a 1/2 organised Bde and Division in front of them to Egypt. The ability to shock attack incessantly and the poor ground modelling (IMO) mean a Blitzkreig of un-approachable proportions can be made by the Axis.

Also as you mention supply and fuel can easily be sent to NA in quantities Rommel would've dreamed of[;)]

Bah...the whole truth is that I'm exceptional player![:'(]

[pauk]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/15/42


I'm thinking about placing PTs at my bases - so far i've been too lazy to do it...

Naval bombardment of Paleohora, at 49,121

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ar-196A-1: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Kelvin
DD Janus
DD Jackal
DD Zulu
DD Bedouin
DD Maori
CL Glasgow
CL Liverpool
BB Queen Elizabeth
BB Warspite

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 21
Port hits 1
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 2

I moved most of my ac from Benghazi... Wellies found very few of them on the ground. Time to move ac in once again - Englander still stick around with Navy...and i do not like it - it is Mare Nostrum after all...[:D]

Day Air attack on Benghazi , at 45,128

Japanese aircraft
MC-200 x 8
Bf-110D-3 x 9

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 53

Japanese aircraft losses
MC-200: 1 damaged
Bf-110D-3: 3 damaged
Ju-87 B (Ger): 2 destroyed
Bf-109F-4 Trop: 1 destroyed
Hs-126 B-2: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
152 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 8

at 8000 feet

Look those war criminals - attacking heavily damaged ship is nothing more than war crime!

Day Air attack on Paleohora , at 49,121


Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 24


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Andrea Doria, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

Port hits 1

at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 T x 12
Ju-88A-4 x 16
Hs-126 B-2 x 4

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 1

at 23000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 84 x 31

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 84: 8 damaged


Allied ground losses:
61 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Runway hits 16

at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 19
Z-1007 Bis x 58
BR 20 M x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
Z-1007 Bis: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
BR 20 M: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
30 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 70

at 15000 feet

I'm waiting for reinforcements... until then, keep your heads down!

Day Air attack on 15th Panzer Tank Division, at 50,128


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 5
Blenheim IV x 18
Wellington III x 6
Hudson I x 6


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 2 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
73 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 2

at 8000 feet

Gathered significant bomber force at Heraklion and attacked Speedo's ships.... only two hits (with 1000 lb bombs) and i doubt that damage is significant (one secondary turret is damaged)... Speedy, whats the damage?


Day Air attack on TF at 54,124

Japanese aircraft
Ju-88A-4 x 51

Japanese aircraft losses
Ju-88A-4: 44 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Warspite
BB Queen Elizabeth, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Edinburgh
DD Maori
CL Glasgow

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
1 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 54,124

Japanese aircraft
Ju-88A-4 x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ju-88A-4: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Queen Elizabeth, on fire
BB Warspite
CL Liverpool

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet
2 x Ju-88A-4 bombing at 2000 feet

[Speedysteve]

Queen Elizabeth is fine dumbass - 3/0/12.
 
RN rules the waves.
 
Herr Dumbass here may have a nuke army on the ground and in the air but I rule the waves. Muhahahahahaha[;)]

[pauk]

Phew, those ships are supposed to be on Pacific - at least some of them. How this could be?????!



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/16/42


Englander is really desperate --- bombarding my units at Truk won't stop me from taking this nice base

Naval bombardment of Tobruk, at 50,128

Allied Ships
DD Tartar
DD Raider
DD Isis
DD Inconstant
DD Hero
DD Griffin
DD Eclipse
CL Leander
CL Ajax
BB Malaya
BB Valiant

Japanese ground losses:
153 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 79 x 28

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
6 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
4 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
3 x SM 79 bombing at 23000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Malta , at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
SM 84 x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
SM 84: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Runway hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x SM 84 bombing at 10000 feet
4 x SM 84 bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Malta at 35,120

Japanese aircraft
CR-42 x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT MTB-66, Shell hits 4
PT MTB-64, Shell hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x CR-42 attacking at 100 feet
4 x CR-42 attacking at 100 feet
4 x CR-42 attacking at 100 feet
4 x CR-42 attacking at 100 feet

And that was it for today... but don't worry i have few suprises - you can bet that Englander will beg for mercy soon!

[Speedysteve]

CA Trento confirmed sunk today[:)] 
 
Axis forces beginning to mass near Tobruk. The end is is near there I would say. 4 units at Gazala approaching.....

[Speedysteve]

Fremen - a couple of thoughts on changes in case you haven't made the malready:

1. The range of the Catalina is nerfed. As in it has the WiTP range and has not been adjusted to 30 mile hex range.

2. The Industry of England seems woefully low. Taranto (Italy) has the same Industry (roughly) as England by the looks of it!