War in the West

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: veji1
I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects". This, i believe, is a mistake. WITP-AE exists because there was a culture of improvement of WITP that led to getting the best out of it, and once this proved to hard, substantially rebuild it to get WITP-AE. Without the imporvements and testing of alternatives done in WITP (foremost the introduction of PDU), WITP-AE wouldn't be what it is.

By not giving a try to improving WITE beyond bug fixes and plain imbalance fixes, the team is depriving itself of the opportunity to try out improvements on a actual game, which is so much more efficien than BETA-testing of a project. Let's try allowing the players to tweak the TOEs of their units to fit what they have at hand, let's try to see if allowing Germany more flexibility on the SU front, in the limits of what is availbale, can make the game a better experience and lead to useful conclusions for the other games to come.

WITE should be the testing ground of improvements, rather than just put aside to wait for an unlikely retrofitting of improvements, more likely a WITE2 down the road.

What I am trying to say is that what makes WITP-AE great is that it is the result of all the work done on WITP. Without the ambition of the community and the developpers in adapting WITP, AE would not have been possible. Hope WITE takes the same road.

The key point you're missing is that WITP-AE was developed by a completely separate team. We wouldn't even have WITE itself if 2by3 were the guys who developed AE.

[Schmart]

Might I suggest that perhaps the simplest solution (and perhaps easiest to code?) would be to reduce the TOE % required before a unit withdraws? Instead of 75% (or 100% or whatever it currently is), set it to 33% to represent a minimal cadre strength. The unit is still withdrawn, the player loses his 'container', but some men and equipment stay in the east, and the unit is presumed to be re-built in the west, using non-east production. There is some room to 'abuse' the withdrawing unit before it leaves (maybe raise the min % to 50 if abuse becomes rampant), but it must be re-built or strengthened somewhat before it withdraws to avoid total abuse.

A simple compromise.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: veji1
I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects".

I think it's a fair argument from the developers. They have a limited number of people working with limited resources. We're not talking a Microsoft team working in shifts around the clock. It's a niche game in an already niche market. I'm not a programmer and my wargame development is limited to producing a couple simple TOAW scenarios, but even in a simplistic system like TOAW, to create something of decent quality takes a great deal of time. I can only imagine what it takes to put something like WitE together. Sure they get paid, but I doubt it's a whole lot. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the guys have stuff on the side to make ends meet or are working on other game programmes at the same time. Lets hope and encourage the developers not to abandon WitE, but let's also be realistic about their resources and capabilities. And to produce ANYTHING of quality in life, it takes time. Lots and lots of time.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: veji1
I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects".

I think it's a fair argument from the developers. They have a limited number of people working with limited resources.

If you please, allow me a fair rebuttal from an early-adopting consumer of WitE.

You charged me $80 for what fair producers in your industry would consider a late beta-test product stage. Now that you have your lessons learned, you're overtly telling me that you're busy using them on War in the West, and have no time or attention for important WitE gameplay problems while excusing bad business practice by saying that you're an small staff.

If you're a small staff, you should have considered how this was going to play out with your consumer base before you set the price premium at $80...

You took my money to sustain future development and apparently had very little intention of really getting the important kinks (like say, logistics...) out of War in the East.

"He tasks me, and I shall have him."

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

You took my money to sustain future development and apparently had very little intention of really getting the important kinks (like say, logistics...) out of War in the East.

Similar situation was with remakes of Close Combat.

[Dili]

And to destroyed unit withdrawals: This may not be nice to have non-destroyed but historically destroyed units removed but keeping the units on the battlefield may also require to remove some of the reinforcement divisions sent-in as replacement for the destroyed ones.

Do not think so. At least until D day. If the player is making better than historical it should retain the units. Most of them certainly. If the advantage he is gaining is overwhelming then some units might retire up to certain point to balance the strength of the fronts.
Besides that would imply a Western front playing abstractly and with variance in results affecting your units and also equipment levels. You play East but you never know if D-day is earlier, if Italy crumbles faster or later if there is the Tunisiagrad or not. That level would be even nice for replaying ability for the game.

Taking units just because was destroyed is like taking the Battleship Barham or any other ship from a Mediterranean Game because it was sunk even if in game was not. Absurd. Only if for example instead of 52 submarines sunk in Mediterranean the British would have lost 30 i can see some that survived being retired if the victory could be achieved at same rate.

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I'd love to talk about it but Joel would have to divulge any information on WitW.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


So how did a War in the West thread turn into a circular argument about German production/replacement/reconstituted divisions not being fair to the German player in WiTE?

Its a wash? No its a benefit to Germany! No its still hopelessly imbalanced against Germany! People say and site various facts and arcane lore.....teeth are gnashed,coffee is consumed,methane expelled so next a global warming argument is about to breakout.

If we must continue to indulge in a pointless revamp and allow German production in WiTE thread can we move it to say: The pointless German production argument for WiTE?

The we can have a WiTW thread that is about War in the West! I for one would much rather read about el hefe's work on the 1944 allied campaign then countless back and forth argument.

The very best of luck. I think you have your work cut out, there, and the current arguments around WITE will feel like a gentle diversion post WITW release.

Regards,
ID

[Joel Billings]

A buyer of a game has every right to be disappointed in a product that they buy. Tastes vary, and different people are looking for different things. You have every right to express your disappointment with specifics with what you don't like. As long as people keep things civil, they are free to post, that's the point of the forum. There is always something that can be improved in any game, and no game is perfect. We don't claim WitE to be perfect, and no doubt it could be improved by constant attention from programmers and other development personnel. However, based on the feedback of many, and the many awards that WitE received and continues to receive, I feel we succeeded with WitE in so much as it’s as good an East Front Grand Operational game as is out there, and better than most. It will provide most players with hundreds if not thousands of hours of enjoyable game time (versus the AI or other players). It has since release, and continues to do so today. I say most players, not all. Of course I would prefer that all our customers love every product we put out, but that will never happen. We do our best to put out the best product we can, and I'll stack our track record up against anyone when it comes to serious wargames.

We continue to track bugs, both code and data, and will continue to periodically make attempts to fix them. We will keep an eye on the game to see if any subtle balance changes would be warranted down the road. The editor is always available for gamers that want to alter some parts of the game. Major changes are now being worked on in War in the West, a new logistics & rail system, and a new air system being the two being worked on now. For those looking for more out of their East Front experience, the best route for us is via War in the West and an eventual WitE 2.0 (GE, or whatever you want to call it). As we get further into War in the West development we'll try to talk about some of the changes being made (but I'll start a new thread).

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: veji1
I would just like to express my disappointment at the lasting message I get from this thread :"no substantial improvement to WITE is forthcoming because we are too busy with WITW and other projects".

I think it's a fair argument from the developers. They have a limited number of people working with limited resources.

If you please, allow me a fair rebuttal from an early-adopting consumer of WitE.

You charged me $80 for what fair producers in your industry would consider a late beta-test product stage. Now that you have your lessons learned, you're overtly telling me that you're busy using them on War in the West, and have no time or attention for important WitE gameplay problems while excusing bad business practice by saying that you're an small staff.

If you're a small staff, you should have considered how this was going to play out with your consumer base before you set the price premium at $80...

You took my money to sustain future development and apparently had very little intention of really getting the important kinks (like say, logistics...) out of War in the East.

"He tasks me, and I shall have him."

I think I must not understand this post, because it seems like the poster is arguing that Matrix Games somehow screwed him in that he has not gotten his money worth from the product he purchased from them.

Now, I can certainly understand that some people may not like the game, or may not like some of the choices that were made, but to argue that he was somehow decieved or that Matrix has engaged in less than ethical business practices?

That cannot possibly be what he is saying...right?

Cause that would be just barking mad...

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Berkut
That cannot possibly be what he is saying...right?

Cause that would be just barking mad...

Congratulations Berkut! You broke the code!!! [:D]

[Aurelian]

It's one thing to not like a game. Have several myself that I intend to use for 7.62x54r bait.

But, this *nonsense*, undeserved and uncalled for......

Guess he needs a time out.

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It's one thing to not like a game. Have several myself that I intend to use for 7.62x54r bait.

But, this *nonsense*, undeserved and uncalled for......

Guess he needs a time out.

I agree. I'm getting tired of Whiners!!! They say the same old stuff over and over. Let them build their own games(s) if they don't like what they are seeing....

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Treale

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It's one thing to not like a game. Have several myself that I intend to use for 7.62x54r bait.

But, this *nonsense*, undeserved and uncalled for......

Guess he needs a time out.

I agree. I'm getting tired of Whiners!!! They say the same old stuff over and over. Let them build their own games(s) if they don't like what they are seeing....

Just put them on ignore.

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


So how did a War in the West thread turn into a circular argument about German production/replacement/reconstituted divisions not being fair to the German player in WiTE?

Its a wash? No its a benefit to Germany! No its still hopelessly imbalanced against Germany! People say and site various facts and arcane lore.....teeth are gnashed,coffee is consumed,methane expelled so next a global warming argument is about to breakout.

If we must continue to indulge in a pointless revamp and allow German production in WiTE thread can we move it to say: The pointless German production argument for WiTE?

The we can have a WiTW thread that is about War in the West! I for one would much rather read about el hefe's work on the 1944 allied campaign then countless back and forth argument.

To answer the original question which started this thread: Yes. we are working on WitW.

Hrrm, well one thing I'm curious about with the coming WitW game is when does it start ? I mean does it begin with D Day or does it start with buildup and strategic air or does it begin after D Day?

[Tophat1815]

That is also what I'd like to know but some people won't drop complaining about WiTE in this thread clearly titled WiTW. Now Joel is saying that sure they will "in future" talk about War in the West..but they need another thread to do it in. Luckily I have an AE turn to get to and the WiTe AAR section to browse through. Oh and I enjoy WiTE,got my monies worth and more and am looking forward to future games in the series. So WitW information would be very nice indeed.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Treale

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It's one thing to not like a game. Have several myself that I intend to use for 7.62x54r bait.

But, this *nonsense*, undeserved and uncalled for......

Guess he needs a time out.

I agree. I'm getting tired of Whiners!!! They say the same old stuff over and over. Let them build their own games(s) if they don't like what they are seeing....

Just put them on ignore.

I did, but people keep quoting!! [;)]

[gradenko2k]

This is pure conjecture of course, but Gary Grigsby's old Western Front game, which would be the progenitor to WITW much as War in Russia precedes WITE, had the following scenarios:

1. Diadem - starts on May 17, 1944 and is limited to the Italian Peninsula as far south as the Anzio / Monte Cassino / Hitler Line area, and as far north as Milan. The Allies need four out of: Milan, Venice, Bologna, Florence, Livorno and Genoa. Runs until Oct 1, 1944.

2. Overlord - starts on May 17, 1944 and covers the entire Western Front. As far North-West as Leeds in Britain, as far North-East as Poznan/Rostock, as far South-East as the Italian Peninsula covered in Diadem and as far South-West as Bayonne in Southern France. The Allies need four out of: Berlin, Hamburg, Essen, Cologne, Nurnberg and Munich. Runs until Jul 1, 1945. The start date was deliberately set earlier than Jun 6, 1944 so that the Allied player isn't limited to landing in Normandy all the time.

3. Breakout - starts on Jul 24, 1944 and covers Southern England, half of France as far South as Nantes / Dijon / Tours, the Low Countries, and parts of Germany as far east as Stuttgart, although victory conditions only extend as far as the Allies requiring four out of: Essen, Arnhem, Antwerp, Aachen, Cologne and Metz. Runs until Nov 1, 1944.

4. Bulge - starts on Dec 16, 1944 and covers much the same area as Breakout, minus parts of France/Britain farther East than Le Havre / Dover. The Allies need five out of: Antwerp, Namur, Bastogne, Liege, St Vith and Luxembourg. Runs until Feb 1, 1945.

Refresh my memory, but is WITW supposed to cover the period 1939-1941, such as the invasion of Norway and the Battle of France? I'm guessing yes, and then nothing more Southern than Sicily, since they're also planning War in North Africa. That would seem to leave out the Balkans/Crete though, unless North Africa also covers that.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Treale




I agree. I'm getting tired of Whiners!!! They say the same old stuff over and over. Let them build their own games(s) if they don't like what they are seeing....

Just put them on ignore.

I did, but people keep quoting!! [;)]

Sometimes I'm guilty of that.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812


So how did a War in the West thread turn into a circular argument about German production/replacement/reconstituted divisions not being fair to the German player in WiTE?

Its a wash? No its a benefit to Germany! No its still hopelessly imbalanced against Germany! People say and site various facts and arcane lore.....teeth are gnashed,coffee is consumed,methane expelled so next a global warming argument is about to breakout.

If we must continue to indulge in a pointless revamp and allow German production in WiTE thread can we move it to say: The pointless German production argument for WiTE?

The we can have a WiTW thread that is about War in the West! I for one would much rather read about el hefe's work on the 1944 allied campaign then countless back and forth argument.

To answer the original question which started this thread: Yes. we are working on WitW.

Hrrm, well one thing I'm curious about with the coming WitW game is when does it start ? I mean does it begin with D Day or does it start with buildup and strategic air or does it begin after D Day?

I've read somewhere on these forums they're thinking 1943.

Understandable. Start in 39. The Axis player is an unstoppable demon. Then in June 41, 60-70% of his military is sucked into Russia. So he spends two years waiting for the Allies to invade. Or fighting partisans in the Balkans.

[Micke II]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Major changes are now being worked on in War in the West, a new logistics & rail system, and a new air system being the two being worked on now. For those looking for more out of their East Front experience, the best route for us is via War in the West and an eventual WitE 2.0 (GE, or whatever you want to call it). As we get further into War in the West development we'll try to talk about some of the changes being made (but I'll start a new thread).

How important will be the naval warfare component ? In others terms does War in the West will also simulate the Atlantic battle and the fight between the Italian Navy and the British Navy in the Mediterranean ? What will be the time and hex scale ?