The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (no Q-Ball please)

[Tarhunnas]

The South ater Geman moves. With heavy heart I decide not even to try to rescue the surrounded divisions. To do so would risk getting even more divisions in trouble. Instead I pull back te entire line, as I should have done from the beginning. The idea is that the Soviets will not be able to launch deliberate attacks.

[Tarhunnas]

In the north, another little disaster. One division is cut off east of Vyshni Volochek. Determined counterattacks fail to relieve them.

[Klydon]

Nice thing about those surrenders is those units are gone for good. No more free replacements for the Russians.

I think Q-Ball is making a better showing of the caliber of player he is by rebounding from his earlier losses. (Hopefully that came out right [;)]  I mean he was a better player than he was showing earlier).

One thing I have observed with lines is to try to reduce the number of spots the Russians can attack from 3 hexes. There is a big difference for them to launch a deliberate attack with 3 hexes worth of units than 2. It also makes it much harder to jam units into the breech created. (Of course I say this and am probably going to be guilty of offering too many 3 hex locations in my own AAR).

You are almost out of December and your units should be a big stronger after this.

[Tarhunnas]

Losses from counterattacks. The numbers look good, but a large part is the Ochakov bridgehead and the Finns.

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Comment: Its a pity the games hex-mechanics encourage unhistorically straight frontlines, and there is no chance whatsoever of a Demyansk or Kholm occuring in the game.

Upcoming stack limits for the attacker will help a lot in this regard.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Comment: Its a pity the games hex-mechanics encourage unhistorically straight frontlines, and there is no chance whatsoever of a Demyansk or Kholm occuring in the game.

Upcoming stack limits for the attacker will help a lot in this regard.

Well...if they are playing with 1.04.28, or later, then they already have this aspect of the new combat changes in play.

Tarhunnas, which version are you guys using?

[JJKettunen]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Well...if they are playing with 1.04.28, or later, then they already have this aspect of the new combat changes in play.

Obviously I haven't paid enough attention to the public versions...

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Comment: Its a pity the games hex-mechanics encourage unhistorically straight frontlines, and there is no chance whatsoever of a Demyansk or Kholm occuring in the game.

Upcoming stack limits for the attacker will help a lot in this regard.

Well...if they are playing with 1.04.28, or later, then they already have this aspect of the new combat changes in play.

Tarhunnas, which version are you guys using?

We try to always use latest beta, so we are on 1.04.30 now.

I don't see the changes in 1.04.28 creating Kholm or Demyansk. I think some kind of special rule would be needed, like that surrounded German units in level 2 forts or greater would defend like in summer for example. I think even that would hardly let a surrounded German stack survive for a couple of months.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Keke




Upcoming stack limits for the attacker will help a lot in this regard.

Well...if they are playing with 1.04.28, or later, then they already have this aspect of the new combat changes in play.

Tarhunnas, which version are you guys using?

We try to always use latest beta, so we are on 1.04.30 now.

I don't see the changes in 1.04.28 creating Kholm or Demyansk. I think some kind of special rule would be needed, like that surrounded German units in level 2 forts or greater would defend like in summer for example. I think even that would hardly let a surrounded German stack survive for a couple of months.

Certainly not during the First Winter. The combat rules are still pretty severe against the Axis during this period, despite the adjustments, thus far.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't see the changes in 1.04.28 creating Kholm or Demyansk. I think some kind of special rule would be needed, like that surrounded German units in level 2 forts or greater would defend like in summer for example. I think even that would hardly let a surrounded German stack survive for a couple of months.

Certainly not during the First Winter. The combat rules are still pretty severe against the Axis during this period, despite the adjustments, thus far.

I think the first winter seems about right now. The Germans are weak and can be pushed around, but they can make counterattacks against weakish Soviet units, especially if using panzers.

The only thing that I am missing is the ability of a surrounded German stack or Demyansk like pocket to survive the winter given fortifications and air supply.

[Scook_99]

One other game I enjoy and is made by another company made a design change to use "tiles" (squares) instead of hexes. The venom produced by players was large and caustic, they want their hexes back. Grognards, we ain't happy any time, except maybe asleep. And then we aren't sure we are happy as we are asleep.

[Ketza]

What you will find is that staying just out of range for deliberate attacks will also help keep his army from getting btter from victories and slow down creating more guards units. Sure you are giving up ground but in most cases you can get it right back when the weather turns back in your favor. Also as you begin to stiffen up in late January early Feb you can afford to fight for more hexes as your CVs begin to recover.

[TulliusDetritus]

It's curious that everyone says december is the worst month [&:] On my [Soviet] game the best blizzard months were january and february. As I see it, in december you are basically trying to dislodge the fascists from their fortified hexes. Once this is done (january and february that is), it's when the massacres really start [8D] At least that was my experience, conclusion.

[Peltonx]

TulliusDetritus thats kinda true in general. If the Russian player is unable to dislodge the German player from forts in December then it be a easy winter. Generally if I dig in soon enough even vs a good Russian player they are lucky to have a few soft spots, which I have been able to move my reserves to and generally hold the line.

Having said that Ketza's way of simply withdrawing a hex or two a turn back to the rivers would work fine also. The ground lost or gained after the 41 summer east of the rivers means little if anything. Conserving troops/tanks/art is the main goal for rest of the war I would think.

You really got your work cut out for you Tarhunnas, but you got skills so you be fine I am sure.

Pelton

[TulliusDetritus]

Holding the line -as a norm- is a pipe dream, Pelton [;)] You do NOT have enough units to man the whole front-line. The only thing that can really save you is minimum 2-units German infantry stacks AND in fortified hexes... And this it's absolutely impossible to have along the whole front... Do the maths.

No matter the fortified level (3 or 4). A single unit will NOT, repeat, will not resist the massive Red Army assaults (6 or more attacking units). This I saw it very well on my game... And of course I soon realized fortified two-units stacks (Germans) were almost untouchable. But strong somewhere = NECESSARILY weak elsewhere. In other words, impossible to hold the line, unless a) you managed to literally massacre the Red Army during the summer or b) the Soviet player is simply incompetent [;)]

And this has nothing to do with being a good or bad German player. It's an objective fact methinks.

[Peltonx]

The line can be "held".

1. Dig in early 3 deep, lvl 3
2. Ruler striaght.
3. Stack 2 deep on any hexs that can be attacked from more then 2 hexs.
4. Set ToW level at 50% on non Inf/mech units. 75% is really pushing it. 50% is much easyer.
5. Mech units in Citys in reserve use as needed.
6. Minor allies digging a 4th line and doing ZoC to really slow any soft spots.

Pelton

[Tarhunnas]

That is good advice Pelton. You have made winter defense into an art! [:)]

Edit: Maybe you should post that in the War Room in its own thread. It can be useful to people and is maybe easier seen there.

[TulliusDetritus]

You're not listening, Pelton [:)]

Forts are TOTALLY irrelevant IF you don't have 2-units German stacks in EVERY single hex. And this you cannot have it. It's mathematically impossible [;)]

The Soviet on the other hand will easily have minimum 2-units stacks from the Baltic to the Black Seas...

So you like it or not (it's irrelevant) there will be MANY hexes with a SINGLE German unit that will be assaulted from minimum 2 hexes... er 6 attacking units (you will add extra punch). And this you cannot resist it, no matter your fort level...

On my game I saw what you say in the north, in Leningrad area. My opponent was very well entrenched and had 2-units stacks (NOT minor allies). I only advanced 4 or 5 hexes. But he obviously could not afford this in the whole front (and that's the whole issue), therefore he could not stop the steamroller.

[Tarhunnas]

Tullius, what do you suggest the Germans should do instead?

[Klydon]

TD, that is what he has had success with in every game he has played and those games have been under 1.04 betas.

I know your latest winter was with 2ndACR, but I am not sure what version you were playing when you launched your offensives. The other thing is I think your army was not as pressed as what some of these Russians armies were pressed and so in much better shape to launch counter attacks. I also think 2ndACR was not as prepared as Pelton has been when it comes to winter.

The forts do help under the new patches when it comes to German loss reduction, making them stronger.

Most of the AAR's I have seen, the Germans are very weak during December especially, but get stronger as the Blizzard goes along switching from month to month.