The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please)

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

A really, really, really good Russian player had lost by Turn 8.

Thats got to ring some warning bells somewhere, surely?

I would not hold my breath [:D]

Chances are some players think they've finally found the Holy Grail... Why would they let it go? Quoting Charlton Heston: "you can take my gun from my cold dead hands" [:'(]

Morale of the story for Soviet players: ignore completely the weird rules that will lead you to utter annihilation. And let some German players cry. End of the problem...

[Flaviusx]

Vic, it all depends what you mean by the term of "balance." Obviously, different people have different and very unreconcilable ideas of what that means. My idea of balance does not include turn 8 losses by the Soviet Union. I'm crazy that way.

You can always green button me.

Michael T lies on the other end of the spectrum here. He is completely cool with these results and is quite untroubled by his non stop string of successes and keeps jerking the rules set around to make sure he never sees 1942. That's his idea of balance. You can go with that if you want.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

A really, really, really good Russian player had lost by Turn 8.

Not feeling really, really, really, good after this. [;)]

[Klydon]

There are some fundamental logistical issues not only with this game, but any game in terms of balance:

1. Do you try to balance the game so that in the hands of two ok-good players, you get a good game or do you try to make it balanced between two expert players? There is a big difference in what it takes to balance.

2. Just about every other East front game is a slugfest/brawl (with the Germans with a clear superiority in 1941, and the Russians in 1944), not a track meet. This game is a track meet clickfest. Russians run in 1941, Germans run in the winter, Russians run again in 1942. This is silly and is the worst part of this game which makes it totally not worth playing at this point as is between two humans and it won't be worth playing until those issues are resolved.

@TD as far as letting the Germans cry with stock rules. That is part of the problem with this game and why things have dropped way off. Try getting a German to play with stock rules. It isn't fun for the reasons I mentioned above.

While opinions may vary as far as the house rules set up in this game, one thing that everyone has to admit is that in its short life, it was an AAR that got a lot of attention and was interesting because there was actual fighting going on and because of the caliber of the two players involved. It ended badly for the Russians, but my guess if the same two players went again, Tarhunnas may well do better after what I am sure was a learning experience for him. Michael may also be able to do better as well, but I think it was a bigger learning experience for Tarhunnas.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

By the very nature of it, this wont ever happen. U start with 4m man and get around 3 to 3,5mil manpower in reinforcement/replacement before the start of the blizzard. This is set high not low. Thats around 7 mil in all. If u lose 6 mil u wouldnt have any thing left in ur combat forces.
What u get in game arent close to the historic mobilization numbers. Hench u cant lose historic numbers and have any thing left. If u have no troops u cant defend/hold any thing.

More thoughts about this [:)] My sources (in this case a book written by Sokolovski, Marshall of the Soviet Union) say during 1941 (5 months + 1 week that is) 150 rifle divisions and brigades were sent to the front. Well, these numbers actually are the same on the game if you check the reinforcements thing.

Shoud I conclude that the manpower numbers are not correct then (at least for the first months [;)])? This would make sense. Once invaded, there was a MASSIVE mobilisation. In any case, a mobilisation that could afford 6 million losses (fact).

People can of course disagree, but next step would be explaining how the Red Army survived and then managed to counter-attack with er... 1.5 million soldiers [:D]

[TulliusDetritus]

Wait wait wait! The numbers I gave are NOT correct. These are the correct ones (100%)

Date: from 22 june to 1 december.

Rifle Divisions sent to the Front: 150
Rifle Brigades sent to the Front: 44

And there is more!

These rifle divisions were only the 52% of the RESERVE rifle divisions. The rifle brigades were the 47%...

Therefore, no, not all the counters are on the game, along with the short manpower... [8D]

EDIT: all these units belonged to Stavka, were the reserves the state had mobilized, assembled. As you can see, after these massive deployments, Stavka still had the 48% of the rifle divisions and the 53% of the brigades... So roughly only the 50% of the reserves were committed to more or less stop the Blitzkrieg. Or if you prefer, the 50% of the reserves were available to meet future dangers... or counter-attacks aka Moscow Counter-Offensive.

[Encircled]

With these rules, Michael T would wipe the floor with any Russian player.

I know what I'm doing, but with these rules, I'd be wasting three weeks of my time to get my ass kicked, and the worst part of it would be that whatever I did (within the rules for this particular game), it wouldn't make any difference.

I haven't played since last year (RL and kids reasons), but if I played against a human again, I'd want to make sure that it wasn't a waste of time, and fun for me.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

@TD as far as letting the Germans cry with stock rules. That is part of the problem with this game and why things have dropped way off. Try getting a German to play with stock rules. It isn't fun for the reasons I mentioned above.

Klydon, I would gladly do what Michael wants. But give me the counters and men. See above my previous post [:)]

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Not feeling really, really, really, good after this. [;)]

Your modesty is appreciated, but your conclusion is wrong. You did your best, no major mistakes. You were tied in the basement, and with NO massive reserves behind you... because they are not on the game in the first place. You were taking more or less historical losses but there were no historical mobilsation and counters behind your back. That's all [;)]

[Aurelian]

The 5.5-million man Red Army lost at least 2.8 million men by 1 October
and 1.6 million more by 31 December. During this period the Red Army
raised 821 division equivalents (483 rifle, 73 tank, 31 mechanized, and 101
cavalry divisions and 266 rifle, tank, and ski brigades) and lost a total of 229
division equivalents.

[RCHarmon]

Tarhunnas was fighting both the Axis and the game itself.

The IGOUGO system left him flat footed and the unrealistic supply system allowed panzers to push deep into his lines when they should have been past fumes.

Half the movement and double the turns.

Make a more realistic logistics system.

These are, in my opinion, are two major problems with the game.

The idea of using counters to resemble supply build up is a good idea.


Everyone agrees on logistics not everyone on IGOUGO.


These same things work against the Axis later on in the war.

I believe in German what ifs and that the Axis did and should have a chance for victory in 1941 and a slight chance in 1942. Michael is right about the Axis should be able to win the game or what is the point in playing.

[Encircled]

Well one thing is for sure, there isn't any danger of an Axis player losing with these rules.

[RCHarmon]

The rules never came into play. Everyone talks about the rules when they never reached a point where they mattered.

Michael T is not the average player. I for one will never be able to play as well as he does. Are all future versions going to be designed to defeat Michael T?

Only thing proven here is that a very forward defense does not work against a very competent Axis player. If the Soviet player had ran behind the Dnepr it would have been a different game. This tells the Soviet to run and tells the German that there is not much reason to play the game because the Soviets run and there is never a chance to strike a winning blow or any blow at all that will affect the game in a way that will mean anything but destruction for the Axis player as the game plays out.

[vicberg]

Flav, I'm never going to green button. You have far too much good stuff to say. I'd suggest reading Michael's posts again. He's been saying the same thing for a while now. He would love Soviets with no house rules because he knows that Soviets will always win. The only way Germans can win is if 1) using mules, which isn't possible anymore and 2) forcing the Soviets to fight forward. Same message in almost every post.

I believe the fundamental problem right now is this belief that Soviets should always win. That's a game not worth playing. Soviets should be forced to fight forward to some degree or risk the game going well into 45. Simple as that. Preserving the red army is far and away more important than Moscow, Lgrad, anything else, as the game currently stands. Which is why Michael didn't bother with them. He went after the army because that's the ONLY way the Germans can win.

So I agree, there isn't consensus on what a "balanced" game looks like. From my perspective, both sides have the chance to win. For Germans, that means the destruction of the red army in 41 or taking enough major cities so that Soviet production is damaged enough for a competitive 42 and the game possibly going into 45.

[gids]

im just playing a game against Bigbaba ,and i used forward defense like a maniac ,i dont like to use forward defense after my game against tarhunnas ,but this time i think its proven worthwile ,he only captured leningrad from the main cities now the point i dont like,i had to sacrifice over 60 !!!!! divisions so i could get sparetime.....and that is .... not fun if you like to play sparingly with troops and with a bit of thought, i followed the AAR but i did know it wouldnt last longer then max 20 turns to finish it after i saw the first 4 turns plus the adding houserules ,it was a recipe for disaster
both are excellent players  no argument about that  .
Now,you cant expect the programers of the game to change the whole supply system because of 1 gamer who prob stares times and times again on the screen and redos  every opening move till he founds what best,Rest asured in WitW im sure michael will find another few ways to eummm "cheat " the system 
A real war is unpredictable ....now every division is known every spot every hill or difficult point ,the first turn for a soviet is not even a "real" turn anymore,its something you have to stare at for 5 min do your things and push next turn :p ,now if you know michael (from the AAR)and you know his houserules and you know how he plays and you still play him ,then you deserve a medal .I dont know how he does his turns serverbased but im sure hes not done in an hour even 2 ,small sidenote  if you want to play michael in a 42 game ask him to start in 42 ,who knows maybe he will say yes,i have no clue,chances are pretty steep he will get stalingrad though ,otherwise good AAR tarhunnas and a valiant effort to play michael
PS ...i also want to see the supply system changed,not because of michael  just because its not Realistic ,from what i read it will be better in WitW
 
 

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Flav, I'm never going to green button. You have far too much good stuff to say. I'd suggest reading Michael's posts again. He's been saying the same thing for a while now. He would love Soviets with no house rules because he knows that Soviets will always win. The only way Germans can win is if 1) using mules, which isn't possible anymore and 2) forcing the Soviets to fight forward.

You say this as if it is gospel, yet can't show a body of evidence to support the claim. Where are all these AARs that the Soviets are winning?

Answer: They aren't there.

The stock answer seems to be that when these AARs goes in favor of the Axis, it's a good Axis player vs. a lesser Soviet one. Yet we're still waiting for one of these AARs between two equal players where the Soviets are in Berlin before May 1945. That hardly supports a claim of a Soviet slam-dunk between equals.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Flav, I'm never going to green button. You have far too much good stuff to say. I'd suggest reading Michael's posts again. He's been saying the same thing for a while now. He would love Soviets with no house rules because he knows that Soviets will always win. The only way Germans can win is if 1) using mules, which isn't possible anymore and 2) forcing the Soviets to fight forward.

You say this as if it is gospel, yet can't show a body of evidence to support the claim. Where are all these AARs that the Soviets are winning?

Answer: They aren't there.

The stock answer seems to be that when these AARs goes in favor of the Axis, it's a good Axis player vs. a lesser Soviet one. Yet we're still waiting for one of these AARs between two equal players where the Soviets are in Berlin before May 1945. That hardly supports a claim of a Soviet slam-dunk between equals.

The issue with the game right now between two players of about equal experience is one of two things generally happens.

In one scenario, the Russians try to stand and do some fighting. The Germans generally slaughter the 1941 army and there is not enough left to fight with, so most Russians surrender.

In the other, the Russians run for the hills, evacuating what they can, but they don't hold ground or at the very least, lose as little of their army as possible and could care less if they lose such places like Leningrad/Moscow, etc. The Germans return the favor during the winter, running hard to the west to avoid the Russian blizzard offensive. The cycle repeats once again in 1942 when the Russians once again run east to avoid any German spring/summer offensive. Going into the fall of 1942, the Russians will look to start making local attacks where they can and continue to slowly take the fight to the Germans, launching more and more attacks over time and grinding the Germans down. In this version, the Germans generally give up the game after being frustrated. The issue with this version is the game is more of a click fest than anything else with both armies chasing each other all over the map for well over the first 100 turns. Sorry, but that isn't my idea of fun.. for either side and I think most players would agree with that.

Considering the Russians have the choice as to which way to play and know if they do the first version they stand much less of a chance to win, then they are going to pick the second version and once most Germans see that, they don't want any part of it.

The Eastern front campaign should be a Clash of the Titans, not who can best manage a track meet.

[Michael T]

It's a fact I have never lost a game as Soviet (people conveiniantly forget that) And under the current set of rules I never will. I will be playing Soviet next. I challenge any player out there who thinks he can beat me as Soviet under the Stock rules. HELLOOOO!!! Where are you?

No house rules.
Server game.
Choose your weather system. Random or not.

Apparently under these stock conditions the poor Soviets still face an uphill battle. PROVE IT!

Gids. I really don't want to bother with your rubbish but I can't put up with it any longer.

Does your mind comprehend that ANY serious player, performer, entertainer or whatever spends FAR more time practicing their craft than actually playing or performing it?

Do you need me to cite examples for you?

You are accusing me of cheating because I practice?

You are an idiot.

[gids]

i putted the "cheat" between  brackets because its not really a cheat but made by the designers that way and so ok to use  ,so keep the tone to a normal level and dont be rude nor impolite because that is totally a sign of stupidity,calling names is a last resort of defense and shows a lack of brains,especially on forums
//gids

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: gids
,small sidenote  if you want to play michael in a 42 game ask him to start in 42 ,who knows maybe he will say yes,i have no clue,chances are pretty steep he will get stalingrad though ,otherwise good AAR tarhunnas and a valiant effort to play michael

You wouldn't want to play the Sovs in the 42 scenario. It has not been adjusted for the new command points. That and all the static units spells lots of trouble.