ZA RODINU! (Kamil vs Mike) March 1943!

[Peltonx]

Kamil would have been better of with drawing during blizzard.

He would get same result or better. When you are closer to Germany there is no replasement issue, bug.

SHC is basicly on the offensive in June 42, not close to historical.

Kamil did basicly historical for 41, but blizzard sets game back to 43.

Basicly skipping 42, ending game in early to mid 44 with zero chance of Kamil getting to even Jan 45.

[Mike29]

Regarding historicity I think that original sins of this game are too-long turn (one week), pocket mechanics and Soviet army of invalids in 1941. All the rest are consequences and tries to balance the game.

[Mike29]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
SHC is basicly on the offensive in June 42, not close to historical.

What about attepts to unblock Leningrad and Rzhev hasherm during all summer 42? Situation is fully historical. All fronts were attacking except South, and withdrawal there was result of catastrophic Kharkov operation. The other issue Soviets weren't have 7 million and Germans 3,4 million. If Kamil caught not 11 weak divs in Orel but all Volkhov from for example with tank corps and guards situation might be another. I mean in historical Kharkov operation in 42 we lost much more that we could allow, so Stalingrad and Caucaus are result of that disaster.

[Peltonx]

The SHC can take 4 million in loses and still win or atleast get a draw. The elite SHC lose less then 2.8 million men, which makes for a monster blizzard and a stone wall in June.

There are zero run away games now Mike and a bunch of undeated SHC players before the run aways .13.

It is normal now for SHC to be at 7 million by June and GHC to be trashed by July 42. Even Bomazz ran up white flag before summer, Sappers done in his game and he had a better then historical 41.

GHC players can get to early 45, but have to think long run from turn 1, which hardly any do.

MT is only undeated GHC, but only because he has not had any post .13 games vs a good SHC.

The game is way out of balance now, one only needs to have an open mind and look at the AAR's.

[Mike29]

I can say persuade developers to remove reload possibility from PBEM game and you'll see completely another results.
 
The other word, I respect mathemathic approach to this game but in our game I'm trying to prove that this game not all about the numbers. I lost much, but I did not ran and I saved all the AP. I fight for each hex, I lost plenty of weak and average diisions in pockets but I saved my elite. I have only 6,5 million but they are guards with high morale and I hope I'll be in Berlin in 44 if Kamil will not punish me with great pocket. I think this way is better than loose 2,5 million and start from Penza.

[KamilS]

Game is good and lively, but I find it irritating when I have 450k manpower in pool and my divisions melt-away.

Imagine situation when all of my divisions were 15 to 20% stronger. It would be the case if replacements were being send properly to the front.


I have lots of 2CV infantry divisions, that have morale in low 70s and I can't do anything to increase number of infantry squads.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Game is good and lively, but I find it irritating when I have 450k manpower in pool and my divisions melt-away.

Imagine situation when all of my divisions were 15 to 20% stronger. It would be the case if replacements were being send properly to the front.


I have lots of 2CV infantry divisions, that have morale in low 70s and I can't do anything to increase number of infantry squads.

Kamil if you have HQ/arty/aa ect ect units set below 85% thats the problem. I also had 450k in pools.

I simply put toe to 100% and the next turn pool was at 60k.

2by3 made it 100% usless to put toe's as GHC below 85%.

I have games going on both sides and this new nerf to make sure GHC sucks in 42. It simply does not effect SHC at all.

Just a GHC beat down nerf. Why they keep making the SHC stronger and GHC weaker I have no idea.

SHC is so over powered now if you can't win in 44 as SHC your a newbie like me.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Mike29

I can say persuade developers to remove reload possibility from PBEM game and you'll see completely another results.

The other word, I respect mathemathic approach to this game but in our game I'm trying to prove that this game not all about the numbers. I lost much, but I did not ran and I saved all the AP. I fight for each hex, I lost plenty of weak and average diisions in pockets but I saved my elite. I have only 6,5 million but they are guards with high morale and I hope I'll be in Berlin in 44 if Kamil will not punish me with great pocket. I think this way is better than loose 2,5 million and start from Penza.

I have posted the SHC win % in PbeM games and server games it is huge close to 30%.

Old news, but it would be great if they could because it would make getting bugs and exploits so much easyer. Also make studing games easyer as player to tweak your own tactics.

I guess witp has a play back recorder which would be fun to watch.

Nice stratagy by the way also.

[KamilS]

Replacements situation (one of many shortcomings of game engine) massively spoils my current game and it fells like WitE should end in summer of '43. I am deeply disappointed, because my struggle against Mike was my most enjoyable encounter so far, but current system will soon take most of the pleasure away by imposing trench warfare and boring passive defence.


At the moment German player is forced abandon attack far to quickly because of designed snowball-effect.

I attack so I suffer loses and they won't properly be replaced. So to maintain momentum I need to weaken other parts of front handing initiative to Soviets everywhere but in area of attack.

My forces on the flanks get beaten so they suffered losses, but obviously they won't be replaced, so either I continue attacking and make situation on flanks even worse or I switch to defence and slowly rebuild forces what won't change anything, because by the time German forces regains strength Red Army will be too strong for any prolonged attempts to create pockets. Once it happens attacking stops being option for Germans, because loses ratio favours Soviet massively.

And it leads to constant withdrawal for one side, and dull grinding for the other.



Game is to be fun and WitE slowly stops providing it.

After removing +1 rule '42 was fun. Not so any more.




Having said that, I don't want to take anything from Mike who is playing better than me, but I need to add that current replacement system is not helping me at all and I feel this is factor that is tipping the scales.

[Flaviusx]

The only thing I can suggest here is to pull units all the way back to a rail line to rebuild. But that's a very big pill to swallow for the Axis, they can't afford to do that with too many units at a time or the front will fall apart. I hear you on the replacement system.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Replacements situation (one of many shortcomings of game engine) massively spoils my current game and it fells like WitE should end in summer of '43. I am deeply disappointed, because my struggle against Mike was my most enjoyable encounter so far, but current system will soon take most of the pleasure away by imposing trench warfare and boring passive defence.


At the moment German player is forced abandon attack far to quickly because of designed snowball-effect.

I attack so I suffer loses and they won't properly be replaced. So to maintain momentum I need to weaken other parts of front handing initiative to Soviets everywhere but in area of attack.

My forces on the flanks get beaten so they suffered losses, but obviously they won't be replaced, so either I continue attacking and make situation on flanks even worse or I switch to defence and slowly rebuild forces what won't change anything, because by the time German forces regains strength Red Army will be too strong for any prolonged attempts to create pockets. Once it happens attacking stops being option for Germans, because loses ratio favours Soviet massively.

And it leads to constant withdrawal for one side, and dull grinding for the other.



Game is to be fun and WitE slowly stops providing it.

After removing +1 rule '42 was fun. Not so any more.




Having said that, I don't want to take anything from Mike who is playing better than me, but I need to add that current replacement system is not helping me at all and I feel this is factor that is tipping the scales.

Welcome to GHC side of things, it is 100% unforgiving and the deck is stacked against you.

If one is open minded the game in all but 2 AAR's is SHC going over to the offensive in mid summer.

The snowball starts in 1941 with:

1. SHC not having to defend the south. They can shift everything other then a screen of brigades to hold Leningrad and Moscow.

2. Losses can be kept far below historical, easly under 2.8 million.

3. By Blizzard SHC has 5 million men and the blizzard which should be GHC pocketing units (historical) or atleast a slow retreat west with no units being cut off and no loss of morale. The hole loss of morale thing is a joke to start with.

The loss of morale from 70 to 60 is a crippling blow, most new GHC players dont get. If morale was held basicly in check even with the crapply replasement system GHC could atleast push until September or October.

4. By June 1942 SHC has 7 million men, GHC average morale has dropped from mid 70's to mid 60's with many units in 50's. The replasement system is a joke at this point, it 100% only hurts GHC and does nothing to SHC.

5. SHC has no manpower or armament shortages at this point and never will. Simply sit back and let your forses build up.

The game is more static now then when the 4-5 fort belts were in play.

Basicly the GHC is forsed over to defensive by mid summer 1942.

Very few if any GHC's have any skill or exp in defending so most guys simply run up the white flag.

This new POS replasement system is a disaster. A SHC fanboys dream come true.

[SigUp]

Well, to put it from both perspectives, although we won't get that until WITE2: This game needs higher German losses in 1941, or in other words, more losses caused by Soviet defence, as well as better Soviet counterattacking abilities in favourable positions. It is ridiculous that when I hammer a lonesome Jäger Division in June 1941 with two or three fully equipped tank divisions on hasty, I lose half my tanks while the Jäger Division leaves with like 300 men lost. Then the game needs to increase the incentive of not running away in the South. Last but not least the blizzard effect, especially on morale, has to be weakenend. The Soviet counterattack should happen more through German weakness and available Red Army reserves, than through a magical weather effect. It is funny to see a German division hammering the Red Army in November 41, only to get kicked around in the blizzard one turn later.

[Saper2229]

GHC can be more dangerous in 1941 than this game and other standart. Soviet only hold Moscow.
I like fight Germany in the first blizzard - Soviet take more losses than Germany.
In 1942 year no target for Germany - if the Soviet strongest - only defend.
No problem with reinforcement if you build right after start.

[Flaviusx]

If you start running away to Poland in September, yes, Soviet casualties are going to be light. You have to grind them almost all the way up to the blizzard to really put the hurt on them. That's the only way they'll hit an armament crunch in 41, too.

You tend to quit attacking too early in 41, Pelton. (Leaving aside your fiasco against MT, you stopped too early in our game as well, and I never ran out of armaments.) 3 million in casualties against the Sovs is easy to do nowadays and ought to be regarded as the bare minimum. If you can't hit that number you are doing something wrong.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If you start running away to Poland in September, yes, Soviet casualties are going to be light. You have to grind them almost all the way up to the blizzard to really put the hurt on them. That's the only way they'll hit an armament crunch in 41, too.

You tend to quit attacking too early in 41, Pelton. (Leaving aside your fiasco against MT, you stopped too early in our game as well, and I never ran out of armaments.) 3 million in casualties against the Sovs is easy to do nowadays and ought to be regarded as the bare minimum. If you can't hit that number you are doing something wrong.

I have had no issues getting 3 to 4 million in SHC losses in all my post .13 games other them MT's

Again talk is cheap, vs the elite SHC players 3 million is not possible. Even me in my very first SHC only took 2.8 million and came very close to ending game during blizzard.

Any GHC player playing in random weather is ignorant of how much this effects the game long run.

My run away vs MT would have same result as Sappers game here. end about same time.

Its simply not possible now to stay on the offensive into summer 42 much past August, look at the AAR's. The games speak for them selfs.

You can't simply pick and choose a game here and there. Look at them all.

Only 2 GHC players are even playing into 43.

[Mike29]

T61. 13.08.942. To Tallinn!

[Mike29]

T61. 13.08.1942. Road to Smolensk.

[Mike29]

T61. 13.08.1942. From the Bryansk bridgehead.

[Mike29]

T61. 13.08.1942. Tragedy of South front.

[Mike29]

T62. 20.08.1942. North.