The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Moderator: maddog986
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
(@MATT), Man I played all of them especially the gold box ones man those were the best stories evah and then some. Did you ever play "Sword of Fargoal"? Questrons I and II, Temple of Apshai? Phantasie? I have the original Might and Magic I and II when we had to map our own adventures like a real dnd game. Have all 3 of the Eye of Beholder series.
Who remembers "Tigers in the Snow"?, Knights of the Desert? Battle for Normandy? The original RTS game "Combat Leader" http://videogamegeek.com/videogame/107667/combat-leader (read the comment about this one way back then) , Eagles the only turn based WWI plane wargame that I can recall till Sid Meier's Ace Patrol on Steam and that one from Roo games: Wings over France 1917.
Ahhhh the 80's the best of times to be a gamer. "Warlords" how many hours did we pour into that game? If you didn't play "War of the Lance" get you a copy somehow and play one of the best games ever made with the best diplomacy ever made in a game.
Who remembers "Tigers in the Snow"?, Knights of the Desert? Battle for Normandy? The original RTS game "Combat Leader" http://videogamegeek.com/videogame/107667/combat-leader (read the comment about this one way back then) , Eagles the only turn based WWI plane wargame that I can recall till Sid Meier's Ace Patrol on Steam and that one from Roo games: Wings over France 1917.
Ahhhh the 80's the best of times to be a gamer. "Warlords" how many hours did we pour into that game? If you didn't play "War of the Lance" get you a copy somehow and play one of the best games ever made with the best diplomacy ever made in a game.
- MrsWargamer
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Two valid details that make all the difference.
When I started with war games, the average example of a 'war gamer' was a person with advanced education who was fairly literate, used to reading thick looking text, and most notably, there was no digital realm to compete with. Today 'reading the manual' is not a popular concept, the whole attention span issue, and there most certainly is the digital realm to compete with.
To sell a war game today, you have to actually do it many times better than it was ever done before.
It's not about the graphics. It's not the complexity, it's the entire experience.
I have the Civilization board game. Awesome map panels that can be employed random. Awesome playing pieces and lots of cards. The components are incredible. The rule book while not a hard read to a person who reads a lot, still consumes time to explain to an audience. Setting it for play takes time as well. It's not a set up and play in 5 minutes game. Yet still I have had people enjoy it who were certainly not 'gamers'.
But it is still a challenge to make it 'attractive' as a way to have fun.
I have seen plenty of war games made by both good developers and ho hum ones produce games that came, face planted and were quickly forgotten as dismal ideas rather quickly. Fools and their money are soon parted, and those fools are some times developers. Just because you make it, doesn't mean anyone will want it.
When I started with war games, the average example of a 'war gamer' was a person with advanced education who was fairly literate, used to reading thick looking text, and most notably, there was no digital realm to compete with. Today 'reading the manual' is not a popular concept, the whole attention span issue, and there most certainly is the digital realm to compete with.
To sell a war game today, you have to actually do it many times better than it was ever done before.
It's not about the graphics. It's not the complexity, it's the entire experience.
I have the Civilization board game. Awesome map panels that can be employed random. Awesome playing pieces and lots of cards. The components are incredible. The rule book while not a hard read to a person who reads a lot, still consumes time to explain to an audience. Setting it for play takes time as well. It's not a set up and play in 5 minutes game. Yet still I have had people enjoy it who were certainly not 'gamers'.
But it is still a challenge to make it 'attractive' as a way to have fun.
I have seen plenty of war games made by both good developers and ho hum ones produce games that came, face planted and were quickly forgotten as dismal ideas rather quickly. Fools and their money are soon parted, and those fools are some times developers. Just because you make it, doesn't mean anyone will want it.
Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: wings7
ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
to start you can try "Fighting Flattops", a remake of the Battleline-Avalon Hill "Flat Top" Pacific WW2 wargame playable for free on the web:
http://www.fightingflattops.com/
or PlanetsNu, a remake of Tim Wisseman VGA Planets: a space 4X not bad at all - also this one is playable for free on the web:
http://planets.nu/#/start
and there are many others strategy and wargames playable for free on the web.. [8D]
Have you played "Fighting Flattops"? How do you like it? The original Avalon Hill "Flat Top" was a classic! [:)]
Flat Top was a Battleline game first

Building a new PC.
- Talon_XBMCX
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Have fond memories of many summer days playing Flat Top, Submarine, Luftwaffe, and Third Reich with my brothers. Still have them sitting on the shelf in my office. May be time to crack Flat Top open again ... 

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: Aurelian
ORIGINAL: wings7
ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
to start you can try "Fighting Flattops", a remake of the Battleline-Avalon Hill "Flat Top" Pacific WW2 wargame playable for free on the web:
http://www.fightingflattops.com/
or PlanetsNu, a remake of Tim Wisseman VGA Planets: a space 4X not bad at all - also this one is playable for free on the web:
http://planets.nu/#/start
and there are many others strategy and wargames playable for free on the web.. [8D]
Have you played "Fighting Flattops"? How do you like it? The original Avalon Hill "Flat Top" was a classic! [:)]
Flat Top was a Battleline game firsthttp://grognard.com/ArticlePageList.asp ... f7#pageTop
Do you know if there is much difference between the Batteline version and the Avalon Hill version?
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
warspite1ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
ORIGINAL: warspite1
aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.
Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?
Just curious.
Google is your friend Yahoo search engine also. Look something up once in awhile. [:'(]
How old are you 5? Its a discussion board - you know where people discuss things/share ideas etc. So you state something, I ask for info and you say "go look it up yourself". Grow up.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
warspite1ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Google is your friend Yahoo search engine also. Look something up once in awhile. [:'(]
How old are you 5? Its a discussion board - you know where people discuss things/share ideas etc. So you state something, I ask for info and you say "go look it up yourself". Grow up.
You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life? [:'(]
Its called a conversation [8|]. I asked a question and you conclude I want everything done for me and have had a silver spoon upbringing. You need help.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: warspite1
aaatoysandmore
There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money.
Just out of interest, where does that stat come from? Who were these wargaming philanthropists and what happened to them? Why did they all stop making games for the love and start actually wanting to earn a living?
Just curious.
I think we can assume these mythical brave souls ended up this way:

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
I'll continue to buy the games from Matrix.
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1
How old are you 5? Its a discussion board - you know where people discuss things/share ideas etc. So you state something, I ask for info and you say "go look it up yourself". Grow up.
You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life? [:'(]
Its called a conversation [8|]. I asked a question and you conclude I want everything done for me and have had a silver spoon upbringing. You need help.
Indeed...and he deleted "You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life?", trying to hide his insulting remark.
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
[:-]
Windows 11 Pro 64-bit (10.0, Build 26100) (26100.ge_release.240331-1435) 24H2
- Hattori Hanzo
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Have you played "Fighting Flattops"? How do you like it? The original Avalon Hill "Flat Top" was a classic!
I played and completed a couple of games of "Fighting Flattops" and I'm now playing the third.
I like it, really and I can recommend it strongly.
by the way, I have also a game in play at the classical Avalon Hill "Flat Top" in those last months with other 4 friends of our wargaming group: 2 squads of two players and one master: played this way it shine !!! [X(]
- Hattori Hanzo
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Do you know if there is much difference between the Batteline version and the Avalon Hill version?
I have both, but I have played only the Avalon Hill one that was the first I buyed in 1987.
then some years after I buyed also the Battleline version in eBay after contracting the dangerous "Wargames Collector virus".. [:D]
not much difference anyway fron the two versions: the Avalon Hill one is more refined but also the Battleline version can be played using both the Battleline rules or the Avalon Hill rules.
some little differences in the maps.
no differences in the counters.
I have the PDF files of the Avalon Hill version and I can provide them to you if you are interested [:)]
- Jagdtiger14
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Wings7: Indeed...and he deleted "You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life?", trying to hide his insulting remark.
Wow! Are you a snitch Wings? Why don't you mind your own business, snitch?
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
Wings7: Indeed...and he deleted "You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life?", trying to hide his insulting remark.
Wow! Are you a snitch Wings? Why don't you mind your own business, snitch?
It is my business...
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
Do you know if there is much difference between the Batteline version and the Avalon Hill version?
I have both, but I have played only the Avalon Hill one that was the first I buyed in 1987.
then some years after I buyed also the Battleline version in eBay after contracting the dangerous "Wargames Collector virus".. [:D]
not much difference anyway fron the two versions: the Avalon Hill one is more refined but also the Battleline version can be played using both the Battleline rules or the Avalon Hill rules.
some little differences in the maps.
no differences in the counters.
I have the PDF files of the Avalon Hill version and I can provide them to you if you are interested [:)]
Thanks for your reply and info Luis! I bought the Avalon Hill version a few years ago...I need to get back into it! [:)]
Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427
- Jagdtiger14
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
Wow! Are you a snitch Wings? Why don't you mind your own business, snitch? It is my business...
Really? How is it your business snitch? This should be good!
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
- PipFromSlitherine
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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak
ORIGINAL: wings7
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life? [:'(]
Its called a conversation [8|]. I asked a question and you conclude I want everything done for me and have had a silver spoon upbringing. You need help.
Indeed...and he deleted "You grow up and learn to do things for YOURSELF. You're like my 8 year old grand nephew he wants everything done for him. Silver spoon mouth fed much in your life?", trying to hide his insulting remark.
That's because I decided not to be "childish" like the rest of you two. [:)] You both have a way of disrupting a thread. You are being watched I hope you know. [:)]