Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

[offenseman]

DBB cut AS down by half or so. If you are looking for 100 AS units, you might find them as 50 AS units. Maybe... have not seen Alloed side of DBB

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: offenseman

DBB cut AS down by half or so. If you are looking for 100 AS units, you might find them as 50 AS units. Maybe... have not seen Alloed side of DBB

Thanks! Seems like in DBB they arn´t even "buyable". Its the BF units in Batavia and Soerebaja it seems? Not only are they permanently restricted but they also have the *garrison* attribute.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Thanks! Seems like in DBB they arn´t even "buyable". Its the BF units in Batavia and Soerebaja it seems? Not only are they permanently restricted but they also have the *garrison* attribute.

Makes sense to me. I always thought buying them out was cheesey. Tough luck for you, however.[:)]

[JocMeister]

Got the turn back pretty late from Tom. So no time for an update tonight.

Nothing spectacular to report anyway! [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]December 20th and 21st -41 [/font]
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Had to work 4 hours overtime last night so I didn´t have time to finish the turn nor do an update. The 20th was pretty uneventful while the 21st had some dire news.

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Malaya
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Small sweeps over Singers but nothing more.

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Philippines
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The bombardments at Clark continue causing minor damage to the allies. I actually had some Arty arrive at Bataan which headed straight for Clark. Forts at 2. Tom is flanking Clark with a small force. But nothing to threaten Manila.

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China
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Most of the action is here. Toms armor continue to wreck havoc among my troops for zero own losses. But on the 21st we get some small success.

Ground combat at 85,46 (near Nanyang)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 504 troops, 0 guns, 103 vehicles, Assault Value = 43

Defending force 10038 troops, 85 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 246

Japanese adjusted assault: 25

Allied adjusted defense: 150

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 6

Combat modifiers
Defender: morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 27 (3 destroyed, 24 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
126 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
13th Tank Regiment
9th Armored Car Co

Defending units:
55th Chinese Corps
77th Chinese Corps[/size]

Probably just motorized support. But still it feels good to finally do something against the Japanese Tiger tanks(?)

The happy day is short live as disaster hits us east of Sian.

Ground combat at 88,41 (near Kaoping)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 28208 troops, 263 guns, 72 vehicles, Assault Value = 740

Defending force 15188 troops, 128 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 323

Japanese adjusted assault: 667

Allied adjusted defense: 328

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
347 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 56 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
6512 casualties reported
Squads: 258 destroyed, 15 disabled
Non Combat: 191 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 12 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 25 (21 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Units retreated 4

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
41st Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
37th Division
5th Armored Car Co
1st Army
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
33rd Chinese Corps
34th Chinese Corps
61st Chinese Corps
7th Group Army

This is a major disaster. I already have troops moving in to strengthen the flank (see screen). But this is the last reserve. If he breaks through quickly Sian and the entire Chinese Eastern front will collapse. I need to stall him for at least 2 weeks to get more troops into Sian.

I don´t have a good feeling about it...

The Chinese liberate Itchang but it has no strategic or tactical value at this point.

Ground combat at Ichang (83,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 35067 troops, 145 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 992

Defending force 3196 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 125

Allied adjusted assault: 1456

Japanese adjusted defense: 64

Allied assault odds: 22 to 1 (fort level 3)

Allied forces CAPTURE Ichang !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: morale(-)

Japanese ground losses:
844 casualties reported
Squads: 30 destroyed, 54 disabled
Non Combat: 21 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 7 (4 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Allied ground losses:
165 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
68th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Corps
75th Chinese Corps

Defending units:
13th RGC Temp. Division

[EHansen]

I believe that the hex you have highlighted is only a X2 terrain hex.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: EHansen

I believe that the hex you have highlighted is only a X2 terrain hex.

You are right. [:)]

But they are leaving the x2 hex and will enter the x3 (WR) next turn.

[EHansen]

I did misunderstand you post.

[obvert]

Ultimately, as I found out, I don't think that road to Sian can be held effectively early on. You can stall there, but those troops will eventually fold. However, if you can get a bunch of your troops back there, you can hold Sian. You just have to get some through to the mountain hexes beyond as well to hold those very low SL hexes and a few behind Sian in the wooded hills.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Ultimately, as I found out, I don't think that road to Sian can be held effectively early on. You can stall there, but those troops will eventually fold. However, if you can get a bunch of your troops back there, you can hold Sian. You just have to get some through to the mountain hexes beyond as well to hold those very low SL hexes and a few behind Sian in the wooded hills.

Problem is I really don´t have that much for Sian. And with Ankang in Japanese hands I may risk losing everything that end up in Sian. Its a dangerous time right now! [:)]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: obvert

Ultimately, as I found out, I don't think that road to Sian can be held effectively early on. You can stall there, but those troops will eventually fold. However, if you can get a bunch of your troops back there, you can hold Sian. You just have to get some through to the mountain hexes beyond as well to hold those very low SL hexes and a few behind Sian in the wooded hills.

Problem is I really don´t have that much for Sian. And with Ankang in Japanese hands I may risk losing everything that end up in Sian. Its a dangerous time right now! [:)]

If Ankang is his, you need to get out now. Yes, it's a bad road, but with crappy Chinese "recon" you're not going to see him march up NW, possibly in great strength, to permanently cut you off. I recognize the temptation to defend Sian, but you shouldn't do it. You should only place things there in case your opponent attempts to take it with a head-on attempt only. If you have any inklings that it's going to be a multi-fronted approach (such as him taking Ankang), then in simple terms Sian is f'ed. All he has to do is establish hex control in 81,40 or 81,39 and suddenly no supplies will be flowing NE - not that a lot would be flowing, but now there's none. Not to mention once the IJA has units there, you aren't going to be dislodging them with your paltry guns-free Chinese infantry, which means you're never getting supply back to those units.

Leave some speedbump defenders (preferably ones already under 1/3 TOE, as they'll respawn bigger than that), and get out before those guys are trapped in the north and useless to you! If you leave Sian with the units you want to save the instant he takes Ankang, you might make it out before he holds the river crossings ahead of you. Maybe.


TL;DR version - Sian is the key to cutting off (and later destroying) whatever Chinese are NE of the central valley. Ankang is the key to cutting off Sian. Ankang is fallen, Sian is next.

I actually prefer to defend Ankang instead of Sian as the Allies. Better terrain and not as exposed, though it doesn't have the same capacity for internal supply generation that Sian does.

[Cribtop]

What are y'all's thoughts on retaining Lanchow even if Sian falls? Lanchow's Oil sets up Manchukuo industry to rock on without imports late into the war.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

What are y'all's thoughts on retaining Lanchow even if Sian falls? Lanchow's Oil sets up Manchukuo industry to rock on without imports late into the war.

Lanchow is a good place to defend, although Sining is better. Keep in mind that no Oil or Resource production will occur with enemy units in the hex.

I leave enough defenders to force a certain level of engagement in these places (which will vary depending on my opponent and the game's pace in China), but that's it. Sining is typically the fall-back point from Lanchow, as any forces I don't want trapped at Lanchow once Sian falls need to get out at the same time as the Sian forces (once Ankang falls).

Manchukuo has plenty of Oil even without Lanchow, though. Especially if the Magic Coast Road gets going, which is easier to do than taking Lanchow.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

What are y'all's thoughts on retaining Lanchow even if Sian falls? Lanchow's Oil sets up Manchukuo industry to rock on without imports late into the war.

I've always thought Lanchow the more important base to hold, as either side. Sian is ok, but in terms of fuel/oil Lanchow is the more valuable objective in my opinion. I'm always happier controlling Lanchow than when I'm not, especially as Japan.

[Cribtop]

Agreed. I got rather lucky and took Lanchow with only 2% damage and my economy was fat and sassy. I had so much supply in Tokyo I didn't know where to ship it. This caused me to ask Mike and Michael the impact of taking a fresh Lanchow. They crunched the numbers and found it was a very big deal. IMHO a decent sized KMT force could try to hold it with supplies from the far West. At least enough to almost guarantee 50% or more destruction of the Oil if the IJA marches in.

[ny59giants]

Once you lose Magwe with the fuel/oil there, you don't have any trickling in from Burma. Now in China you have the fuel from Sian and Lanchow to feed the Heavy Industry at Chungking and Kumning and maybe down to Changsha. You have plenty of Resources, but the Chinese need that little bit of fuel to get those extra supplies. Defend the ability for fuel to move into the interior, but don't do so to the point that you cannot defend the whole of China.

[JocMeister]

Good discussion guys. [&o] I´ll get a map of the area up tonight. To clarify Ankang was lost to paradrop. Its still behind Japanese lines but I have no recon despite every available plane in the region is set to either recon the base or bomb the AF. I know he has flown in at least 1 additional unit.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I actually prefer to defend Ankang instead of Sian as the Allies. Better terrain and not as exposed, though it doesn't have the same capacity for internal supply generation that Sian does.

I find supply just won't flow to Ankang for the Allies. Makes it very tough to fortify and hold. At least it's 3x defensive terrain.

A caution about defending Lanchow. You have to be willing to lose the defenders, because there is a real risk of them retreating towards Sining depending on Japanese dispositions. If that occurs they are essentially out of the war unless you slog through the mountains to try and reach Kienko or Chengtu. As Michael cautions, if you choose to hold at Lanchow in force you risk weakening your Central Plains and Chungking defence. Tough choices. I think trying to hold a line that allows Lanchow's fuel to flow into the Central Plains is key. Keep that fuel flowing for as long as you can.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]December 22nd and 23rd -41 [/font]
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Outside China things are very calm.

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Malaya
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I try to strike out on some shipping from Singers hoping Tom had neglected to put a CAP up. No such luck.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,82

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 11

Allied aircraft
Swordfish I x 3
Vildebeest III x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish I: 2 destroyed
Vildebeest III: 3 destroyed

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Philippines
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I try to move some B17 forward to Clark. Tom spots this and Betties hit the AF torching 1 on the ground. Was worth a try.

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CENTPAC
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Subs has disappeared from the map. First allied Convoys have started to reach their targets. 33rd Japanese ID is confirmed to be moving to Truk. No intended target. Probably Rabaul first and then onward South.

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China
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South of Sian we actually have a some good success. See map for more details. Tom is very fond of shock attacks and this time it backfired for him. He caught two Chinese units in a clear hex with the 35th ID. Despite heavy Japanese bombings from the air the two 300 AV Chinese Corps are able to repulse the attack.

Ground combat at 86,45 (near Nanyang)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 11567 troops, 98 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 341

Defending force 22102 troops, 76 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 696

Japanese adjusted assault: 84

Allied adjusted defense: 389

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1600 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 135 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled

Allied ground losses:
205 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

This is followed up by a Chinese "recon bombardment".

]
Ground combat at 86,45 (near Nanyang)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 21693 troops, 76 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 646

Defending force 10211 troops, 98 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 201

Assaulting units:
85th Chinese Corps
90th Chinese Corps

Defending units:
35th Division

My initial reaction was to immediately order a counter attack next turn. But I think I´m going to cancel the attack and pull out instead. The 90th Corps is already badly disrupted (56) and I´m sure Tom will turn every available bomber in the area to bomb them.

[JocMeister]

Happy midsummers eve everyone! I´m off to the countryside to visit my sister and her family.

Skål!