The early air war

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Crackaces
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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: tyronec

for a heavily mauled raid the first attack seems to successful plus I can't spot the airfield AAA listed as defenders.
I ran quite a few other attacks and the results were similar, air combat between 110s and good Soviet bombers at night had a kill ratio of around 1:6. Given the pool of DB3Bs there should be enough for the Soviets to wipe out the 110s.




Yes, I think ~70-80% of the old bombers should be considered scrap metal/wood and removed from the game. Did the Russians really keep all of these bombers flying in 41? How about the old fighters? I know they would keep some but to the qty that we see in the game?

I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...
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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

In WITP, which air model may have similarities, a raid can be attacked on the way in to target but also on the way back. So you can get destroyed on the way back while still having bombed the target. It depends of how much the raid was detected early. (With radar helping).

WITP is interesting .. you can set very specific ranges and thus set up and avoid "CAP traps"
The interception point is always the target so you can fly over a base chock full of fighters and have the battle many hexes away .. this algorithm works for islands but produces interesting situations over japan as an example .
But there seems to be timing when platforms arrive over the target and intercept happens ...
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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RE: The early air war

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: tyronec



I ran quite a few other attacks and the results were similar, air combat between 110s and good Soviet bombers at night had a kill ratio of around 1:6. Given the pool of DB3Bs there should be enough for the Soviets to wipe out the 110s.




Yes, I think ~70-80% of the old bombers should be considered scrap metal/wood and removed from the game. Did the Russians really keep all of these bombers flying in 41? How about the old fighters? I know they would keep some but to the qty that we see in the game?

I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...

I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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RE: The early air war

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
In WITP, which air model may have similarities, a raid can be attacked on the way in to target but also on the way back. So you can get destroyed on the way back while still having bombed the target. It depends of how much the raid was detected early. (With radar helping).

WITP is interesting .. you can set very specific ranges and thus set up and avoid "CAP traps"
The interception point is always the target so you can fly over a base chock full of fighters and have the battle many hexes away .. this algorithm works for islands but produces interesting situations over japan as an example .
But there seems to be timing when platforms arrive over the target and intercept happens ...


Dinglir is correct in his earlier post that more ranges need to be added to the airbase for smaller ranges. This would help a great deal imho further refining the air war.
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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain






Yes, I think ~70-80% of the old bombers should be considered scrap metal/wood and removed from the game. Did the Russians really keep all of these bombers flying in 41? How about the old fighters? I know they would keep some but to the qty that we see in the game?

I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...

I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.

I am not sure with the new patch if the Pelton airpower theory is still true .. airpower is a difference in attacking terrain + forts ..and Russia fort levels will be higher as a whole when engaged ...
also airpower produces disruption that produces fatigue that eventually produces dead Russians ..

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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RE: The early air war

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces




I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...

I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.

I am not sure with the new patch if the Pelton airpower theory is still true .. airpower is a difference in attacking terrain + forts ..and Russia fort levels will be higher as a whole when engaged ...
also airpower produces disruption that produces fatigue that eventually produces dead Russians ..


Sorry but I have no idea what point you are making here. I think that you are saying that you need airpower to project German Air might with fighter escort???.....???? Which I am saying but in those two current games the Germans are behind the power curve in the Air in my opinion and needs to re-establish that first before stretching an already overworked fighter arm further.

BTW who is advocating the Pelton airpower theory? (I never read a detailed Strat he ever posted) But I don't believe in the way he handled the airforce because it allowed Soviet Fighters to get experience by shooting down unescorted bombers. Which is extremely bad imho. So I assume you are referencing the flying of unescorted bombers to target.
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RE: The early air war

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
BTW who is advocating the Pelton airpower theory? (I never read a detailed Strat he ever posted) But I don't believe in the way he handled the airforce because it allowed Soviet Fighters to get experience by shooting down unescorted bombers. Which is extremely bad imho. So I assume you are referencing the flying of unescorted bombers to target.

Always a bit difficult to be sure what someone meant from what they wrote a long time ago. I always took their point to be to prioritise any saving of lorry use above any air power use. So never move an airbase off rails - which with single stage missions for much of the Axis in 1941 means never (almost) use the air force at all?
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RE: The early air war

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
BTW who is advocating the Pelton airpower theory? (I never read a detailed Strat he ever posted) But I don't believe in the way he handled the airforce because it allowed Soviet Fighters to get experience by shooting down unescorted bombers. Which is extremely bad imho. So I assume you are referencing the flying of unescorted bombers to target.

Always a bit difficult to be sure what someone meant from what they wrote a long time ago. I always took their point to be to prioritise any saving of lorry use above any air power use. So never more an airbase off rails - which with single stage missions for much of the Axis in 1941 means never (almost) use the air force at all?

Trucks aren't an issue imho. You could be within a good radius and get excellent supply. Which you want to make sure to keep filled with supply. But to write it up made for a very nice quick starting point. Like I said there are a ton of mitigating circumstances that is not the easiest thing to write up in a hurry.
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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
BTW who is advocating the Pelton airpower theory? (I never read a detailed Strat he ever posted) But I don't believe in the way he handled the airforce because it allowed Soviet Fighters to get experience by shooting down unescorted bombers. Which is extremely bad imho. So I assume you are referencing the flying of unescorted bombers to target.

Always a bit difficult to be sure what someone meant from what they wrote a long time ago. I always took their point to be to prioritise any saving of lorry use above any air power use. So never more an airbase off rails - which with single stage missions for much of the Axis in 1941 means never (almost) use the air force at all?

and .. "Air power is not needed anyway to push the Russian back so no need to use it" from his "training manual"
.. His strategy might have produced some results in the past but I might contend that the German airpower is needed more than ever to bust Soviet walls ..but I will wait for more recently patched games to progress
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RE: The early air war

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Sorry but I have no idea what point you are making here. I think that you are saying that you need airpower to project German Air might with fighter escort???.....???? Which I am saying but in those two current games the Germans are behind the power curve in the Air in my opinion and needs to re-establish that first before stretching an already overworked fighter arm further.

yes .. and before the most recent patch I think the German could burry the mistake ..just ignore the air (Pelton suggests that air is overrated and not needed to win) however, with the most recent patch the need to project airpower into the battlespace is even greater, and the inability to do so compounds quickly.. becoming apparent as a fortified level 2 and/or 3 wall that can't be busted
I am running into that problem with my game with SparkleyTits ...
so ..

1. You have to smash the Soviet air force turn 1 .. that means being ready to move staging bases deep into the battle space
2. With bases near the rails you project air power into the battle space
3. Then there is the recon and find out where the soviets will intercept and sweep them with fighters that will go away anyway ..
4. Then exhausted with the required to fly exceeded bomb their airbases unescorted ..

Although a picture in my AAR .. the Germans projected fighter cover well into the Leningrad airspace .. the consequences to be shown as soon as we get the turn back ;)
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RE: The early air war

Post by tyronec »

@HardLuck: I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.
A very interesting statement.
I think the Luftwaffe should be available for ground support throughout '41, and to a lesser extent '42. Not everywhere and not all the time, but certainly to start with the Luftwaffe should be dominant. If they are not needed then it is the ground war that needs rebalancing, hopefully over time we will see how that balance is working out with the latest patch in place.

If you are advocating not taking on the Soviet fighter force to keep them with low experience then to what purpose; are you expecting to start ground support bombing later in the game (late '41 or perhaps '42) or do you want to be able to fly more effective CAP later into the game ?
I don't understand why this would work because surely the Soviets can gain experience by flying aggressive tactics throughout '41 and build up experience that way, but perhaps there is something I don't understand about how it works.
And surely if the Axis can't provide good ground support for the first half of '41 what chance have they got later in the game when the Soviets can deploy greatly increasing numbers of air craft ?
Am assuming in all the above that the Soviets will use best aggressive tactics to fatigue Axis fighters and bomb airbases in an effective manner.

In any case, I think it is wrong that air groups can gain experience from being shot down in large numbers. Of course if Axis heavily fatigue their fighters and the Soviets get some easy air-to-air kills then fair enough, experience gain is appropriate.
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RE: The early air war

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: tyronec
@HardLuck: I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.
A very interesting statement.
I think the Luftwaffe should be available for ground support throughout '41, and to a lesser extent '42. Not everywhere and not all the time, but certainly to start with the Luftwaffe should be dominant. If they are not needed then it is the ground war that needs rebalancing, hopefully over time we will see how that balance is working out with the latest patch in place.

If you are advocating not taking on the Soviet fighter force to keep them with low experience then to what purpose; are you expecting to start ground support bombing later in the game (late '41 or perhaps '42) or do you want to be able to fly more effective CAP later into the game ?
I don't understand why this would work because surely the Soviets can gain experience by flying aggressive tactics throughout '41 and build up experience that way, but perhaps there is something I don't understand about how it works.
And surely if the Axis can't provide good ground support for the first half of '41 what chance have they got later in the game when the Soviets can deploy greatly increasing numbers of air craft ?
Am assuming in all the above that the Soviets will use best aggressive tactics to fatigue Axis fighters and bomb airbases in an effective manner.

In any case, I think it is wrong that air groups can gain experience from being shot down in large numbers. Of course if Axis heavily fatigue their fighters and the Soviets get some easy air-to-air kills then fair enough, experience gain is appropriate.


I'm horrible at explaining myself & not always easy to get my point across so I'm sorry for that. The writeup I did in your AAR was what I would do to gain a "German" advantage in my own mind if I were to take over at that spot. Thus too many people are making an interpretation that my strategy is X and hard coded when it really isn't. I'm a fluid player adapting on the go, you have to or you will get your azz handed to you. That writeup was just to get you where I would want to be with what resources where if I had to take over. Since I normally have those resources put into place during the first few turns it is an even workflow with little interruption to meet the Soviets head on for me in a game you are facing.

Yes, the Germans is the dominant Air Force in 41, yes they can bomb with escort, yes they will go after the Soviet fighter airforce. How you do it really depends on the player you are playing but the tune to the music is almost the same but what instrument you use to achieve the song is what is key. Can I explain every eventuality you will meet? No, nor do I have time to do so. But I can tell you that I'm not the "super" aggressive German Air player in the opening 10 turns. I want to keep the integrity of my fighter force intact and will limit any mission that inhibits that. If done correctly with the right instrument the German Airforce can inflict heavy casualties while limiting Soviet Experience. That is why people won't be seeing me fly a multitude of CAP sorties or a multitude of Airfield sorties since those fighters are for the Soviet bombers that "will" come to take out the German fighters. When I as a German have the Advantage (and the experience from shooting down all those bombers) you turn the table around and go after the Soviets. You are bidding your time for the pounce.

Again, maybe I'm just wrong and the Soviet Airforce is just too strong for the Germans Airforce. Makes me want to play the Germans again to find out......



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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

Again, maybe I'm just wrong and the Soviet Airforce is just too strong for the Germans Airforce. Makes me want to play the Germans again to find out......

It depends ...
Me vs. SparkleyTits I try and bomb Il-4's deep into the battlespace turn #1 .. The Germans run quickly into the 33% rule (The first 33% of air miles are measured against potential airbase bombing .. I use the 33% up and no more airbase bombing) I got about 1900 selected platforms.. the 'right ones' but not enough .. Now ST has total domination on Turn 4 and as we go later
The 8MP team has demonstrated in their AAR how under even the latest rules it is quite possible to destroy the Soviet air force and dominate the skies

Somewhere between I suspect are many players. I might contend that a newbie like myself who experienced #1 and not understand how it happened would be of the ilk "The game is so borked .. the German air force is nerfed!" (Well how the Germans are restricted from completely wiping out the Soviet air force turn #1 is kind of borked IMHO I would design things differently .. to achieve the same result but not as many unintended consequences .. that is me) vs. the player experiencing situation #2 might exclaim quite the opposite.
Thus before I start going doing historical simulation vs. fair war game debate I believe a more open discussion of game mechanics focusing on WAD intended consequences, WAD with acceptable unintended consequences, and WAD unacceptable unintended consequences TO&E, OOB, or rules changes needed to modify game behavior. (Does not work as designed is self explanatory)

Just my .02
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RE: The early air war

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
In WITP, which air model may have similarities, a raid can be attacked on the way in to target but also on the way back. So you can get destroyed on the way back while still having bombed the target. It depends of how much the raid was detected early. (With radar helping).

WITP is interesting .. you can set very specific ranges and thus set up and avoid "CAP traps"
The interception point is always the target so you can fly over a base chock full of fighters and have the battle many hexes away .. this algorithm works for islands but produces interesting situations over japan as an example .
But there seems to be timing when platforms arrive over the target and intercept happens ...


Dinglir is correct in his earlier post that more ranges need to be added to the airbase for smaller ranges. This would help a great deal imho further refining the air war.

I second or third this.
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RE: The early air war

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain






Yes, I think ~70-80% of the old bombers should be considered scrap metal/wood and removed from the game. Did the Russians really keep all of these bombers flying in 41? How about the old fighters? I know they would keep some but to the qty that we see in the game?

I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...

I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.

Here's one way to use the German air force wisely. Spam so much recon that the Soviet fighter pilots, exhausted from chasing recon planes, can't get out of their bunks when the Heinkels show up to blast their airfield.

Image
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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces




I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...

I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.

Here's one way to use the German air force wisely. Spam so much recon that the Soviet fighter pilots, exhausted from chasing recon planes, can't get out of their bunks when the Heinkels show up to blast their airfield.

Image

I am for changing the algorithm that given an area recon + some threshold means each mission after that has a logarithmic increase in interception
The Christmas bombings in Vietnam Phase I .. by the third day same routes same altitudes and B-52's were being shot down in droves .. made them think twice about phase II of Linebacker II

I would suppose that if Germans were intercepted at the same rate they would reconsider the strategy of RECON spamming ..and I am guilty as charged in the 2x3 game ...;)
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RE: The early air war

Post by Telemecus »

Perhaps more specifically it is the interception kill rate rather than interception per se that you want to alter.

Would not an easier thing be to just have a recon interception off in air doctrine? It is simply the converse of recon escort off.

Incursions by a few fast light recon aircraft were never treated the same way by airforces as large agglomerations of bombers with or without escorts.
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RE: The early air war

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Perhaps more specifically it is the interception kill rate rather than interception per se that you want to alter.

Would not an easier thing be to just have a recon interception off in air doctrine? It is simply the converse of recon escort off.

Incursions by a few fast light recon aircraft were never treated the same way by airforces as large agglomerations of bombers with or without escorts.

The other possibility is the 2 hex rule .. so recon the same hex twice like you can only bomb a hex twice .. no historical reference or simulation argument there .. just an extension of an already established rule
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RE: The early air war

Post by tyronec »

Perhaps more specifically it is the interception kill rate rather than interception per se that you want to alter.

Would not an easier thing be to just have a recon interception off in air doctrine? It is simply the converse of recon escort off.

Incursions by a few fast light recon aircraft were never treated the same way by airforces as large agglomerations of bombers with or without escorts.
I think the system already does this to some extent - less fighters are sent to intercept recon. It is an annoying issue, not good for the game if someone can gain an advantage by conduct lots and lots and lots of recon, which no one really wants to do.

The root cause of this problem is fighter interception fatigue. Fix that and the problem disappears.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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RE: The early air war

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces




I just shot down over 200 biplanes Turn #6 .. ;) But I can say if I attacked targets unescorted these same cannon-fodder platforms would shoot down their numbers in bombers ...

I'm not advocating unescorted German bomber missions if that is what you are reading into what I wrote ;-). Plus 9 times out of 10 the Germans really doesn't need much ground support in early 41 if you are conducting your ground campaign correctly. The whole point is to use the German Airforce wisely and keep the Soviet Fighter arm with very little experience.

Here's one way to use the German air force wisely. Spam so much recon that the Soviet fighter pilots, exhausted from chasing recon planes, can't get out of their bunks when the Heinkels show up to blast their airfield.

Image

Recon interception doesn't provide a tremendous about of fatigue compared to other forms of interception since only a few fighters are intercepting instead of a multitude. This can be delimited by setting your offset in Air settings for interception during the opposing players turn. So yes it is a contributor but not on the level that is being made out to be imho.
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