Small Ship, Big War - The Voyages of the Hibiki

[Barb]

ehm, I think that War in the pacific was also against Britain, Dutch. )
Instead of pointing of american interests, there should be mentioned something like western colonialism as the war was not only against US )

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: Barb

ehm, I think that War in the pacific was also against Britain, Dutch. )
Instead of pointing of american interests, there should be mentioned something like western colonialism as the war was not only against US )

Well, considering that this is an editorial from a newspaper and is directed to the American president, I see nothing wrong with how its written. One needs not include every participant in every discussion. It is not a discourse on Pacific history.

CF, keep it up. You are doing fantastic work. Now if I could only resist the compulsion to check this site for updates every few minutes or so...

Chez

[Cuttlefish]

November 5, 1943

Location: Kwajalein
Course: None
Attached to: TF 4
Mission: Air Combat
System Damage: 1
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 454

Orders: Await further orders

---

Captain Ishii also reads the Mainichi Shimbun editorial. When he is done he puts down the paper and speaks to Lieutenant Miharu, who is seated across the table from him.

“Did you read this piece calling on the Americans to stop fighting and negotiate peace with us, Exec?” he asks.

“Yes sir,” answers Miharu. “Very interesting, I thought. Those editorials are pretty much written by the government. It made me wonder if there was anything official to back it up.”

“I am sure that we would be delighted to negotiate an end to the war,” says Ishii. “That was always the plan, to carve out a defensive perimeter and hold it until the enemy is willing to negotiate. The question is, would the Americans ever entertain such an idea? I have heard you express the opinion in the past that you don’t think they will stop fighting.”

The lieutenant puts down his cup. “I think,” he says, speaking carefully, “that they will be much more reluctant to stop this war than most of us suppose. I believe they are capable of greater resolve than our leaders think, and their pride and honor have been severely stung.”

“So you do not think that peace is likely any time soon?” Ishii asks.

“Not likely, sir, no,” says the lieutenant. “But how can I say for certain? It is hard to judge the mood in America from the deck of a destroyer in the Marshall Islands! If they see victory as hopeless, then yes, I think they might negotiate.”

“Hopeless, hm?” muses the captain. “I don’t know if they are winning, but certainly their position doesn’t seem to be hopeless.”

“It doesn’t matter whether it is hopeless or not,” comments Lieutenant Miharu. “What matters is if they think it is.”

---

Excerpt from "Naval Battles of the Pacific, Volume 5: Decision" by Morris Elliot Samuelson; Harper, Row, and Fujimori, New York, 1965:

The pressure the Allied forces were exerting was beginning to be felt in Tokyo. By the beginning of October influential voices were suggesting that if Japan was to end the war on favorable terms it should be done soon. Among the voices was that of Admiral Yamamoto, who told Naval Minister Shimada “If you ask me to hold off the enemy for one more year I can do so. If you ask me to hold them off for two more years I will of course do my utmost, but I cannot foresee success.”

The biggest question was whether or not a proposal could be drafted that would be acceptable to the both the Allied powers of Britain, China, and America and to military hard-liners within Japan. These hawks, almost all of them within the Army, were loathe to give up any of Japan’s conquests and fiercely opposed any suggestions to that effect.

Under pressure from Prime Minister Tojo most of these hard-liners were persuaded to agree to at least open negotiations, with the understanding that their views would be heard. A working group was accordingly appointed by the Imperial War Cabinet to “test the waters” and see what, if any, terms might be acceptable to the Allies. The leader of the group was the former Prime Minister, Prince Konoye.

Konoye and the others worked swiftly. By the beginning of November a rough draft of the proposal known as the Greater East Asia Accords was ready. The outline of the proposal was broadcast on November 5 and by the next day copies were in the hands of the leaders of the Allied governments. The main points of the proposal were as follows:

1. An immediate cease-fire by all combatants.
2. Japan would retain all of her former possessions in the Pacific, with the addition of Guam, New Britain and New Ireland, the Solomons, and the Gilberts.
3. Japan would withdraw from the former Dutch East Indies. These territories would be granted independence.
4. Japan would withdraw from the Philippines, which would also be granted independence.
5. Singapore and Hong Kong would be returned to the British.
6. Japan would renounce all territory in China with the exception of Shanghai, which would become an open city under the administration of Japan.
7. Burma and French Indochina would be granted independence.
8. Recognition of Manchuoko as a Japanese province.
9. Resumption of open and unfettered trade between Japan and all other powers.

The major Japanese concession was in China. This was buffered by several sub clauses aimed at appeasing the militarists, including reparations by the Chinese and guarantees that the Communist forces in China would be disarmed by Nationalist, Japanese, and Allied forces.

Reception in America of these terms was mixed, to say the least. Henry Stimson rejected them out of hand. Roosevelt, for his part, had been sitting on a declaration that the only acceptable condition for the end of the war was unconditional surrender by the Axis powers. It was still sitting in his desk, waiting for the moment when the Allies’ military position was favorable enough to allow him to make such an announcement.

But there was strong support elsewhere for at least listening to the Japanese proposal. The perception was widespread that the war in the Pacific had so far been a failure. American and Commonwealth forces, as we have seen, had conquered eastern New Guinea and New Caledonia. But progress was slow and the Japanese fleet still ruled the seas. In Asia the British had remained stalled for months outside of Mandalay, while in China the Japanese had continued to occupy territory.

The issue was hotly debated by the public, in the press, and in Congress. Support for continuing the war was strong, but as Roosevelt wrote in a letter to Churchill, “If our carrier forces meet with defeat again I can see no end to this war.” In such a case, he recognized, he might have no choice but to open negotiations with the Japanese.

The Japanese too recognized that they might be one victory away from a successful conclusion to the war. The next carrier battle might well be the long-sought Decisive Battle.

Both sides, then, knew that they needed to fight soon, and to win. The result of this pressure was to be the greatest naval battle in history, the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.

[Admiral DadMan]

"Lizabeth!!! Oh this is the big one!!! I'm comin' to join ya honey!!!"

[FeurerKrieg]

[X(]

[John 3rd]

It just isn't right posting that and then leave us HANGING!
 
 

[Wirraway_Ace]

Cuttlefish using dramatic foreshadowing to evil affect.

[ny59giants]

Got yours??  
 
and then "maybe" some  
 
I got mine. [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

So it'll be the Great Santa Cruz Turkey Shoot...

[Lecivius]

<Pops a nitro pill to steady the heart

[histgamer]

My prediction is somewhat of a draw. Both Sides lose&nbsp;2 or so carriers and hundreds of planes but to the Japanese it will be a bitter blow... to the allies a blow but also one that gives hope because the japanese will withdraw and maybe the allies gain another group of islands.
&nbsp;
Maybe it will be something like the Antietem of the Pacitic.[:)]

[Capt. Harlock]

2. Japan would retain all of her former possessions in the Pacific, with the addition of Guam, New Britain and New Ireland, the Solomons, and the Gilberts.
3. Japan would withdraw from the former Dutch East Indies. These territories would be granted independence.
4. Japan would withdraw from the Philippines, which would also be granted independence.
5. Singapore and Hong Kong would be returned to the British.
6. Japan would renounce all territory in China with the exception of Shanghai, which would become an open city under the administration of Japan.
7. Burma and French Indochina would be granted independence.
8. Recognition of Manchuoko as a Japanese province.

Very interesting -- although it leaves out the rest of the Malayan Peninsula. I don't know if the Japanese would have accepted the loss of the oil-rich areas in Borneo, Sumatra, and Java. The call for free trade would keep the oil flowing for a while, but the independent DEI would have grievances from the Japanese occupation, and might not agree to indefinite trade. I would also think that the British would feel bound to uphold the Free Dutch and Free French governments' interests, and refuse to unilaterally grant the colonies' independence.

[Capt. Harlock]

Maybe it will be something like the Antietem of the Pacitic.

A very interesting analogy. Antietam (Sharpsburg) was the greatest one-day battle of the Civil War, and although tactically a draw it lead to a dramatic change in the contest: the issuing of the Emancipation Proclamation. Possibly this battle will lead to the Unconditional Surrender policy.

[princep01]

My guess is, given the relative positions of the belligerents, the time elapsed, and the relative generousity of the Japanese offer, peace is about to break out all over following the Japanese victory at Santa Cruz.&nbsp; Hibiki's voyages will soon culminate in the victory procession back to Imperial Japan and we will have to find some lesser tale to peruse.
&nbsp;
If so, it has been a most enjoyable journey, Mr. Cuttlefish.

[Cuttlefish]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

2. Japan would retain all of her former possessions in the Pacific, with the addition of Guam, New Britain and New Ireland, the Solomons, and the Gilberts.
3. Japan would withdraw from the former Dutch East Indies. These territories would be granted independence.
4. Japan would withdraw from the Philippines, which would also be granted independence.
5. Singapore and Hong Kong would be returned to the British.
6. Japan would renounce all territory in China with the exception of Shanghai, which would become an open city under the administration of Japan.
7. Burma and French Indochina would be granted independence.
8. Recognition of Manchuoko as a Japanese province.

Very interesting -- although it leaves out the rest of the Malayan Peninsula. I don't know if the Japanese would have accepted the loss of the oil-rich areas in Borneo, Sumatra, and Java. The call for free trade would keep the oil flowing for a while, but the independent DEI would have grievances from the Japanese occupation, and might not agree to indefinite trade. I would also think that the British would feel bound to uphold the Free Dutch and Free French governments' interests, and refuse to unilaterally grant the colonies' independence.

I agree with you and think that neither Japan nor the Allies would be comfortable with the idea of granting full, immediate independence to anyone. The fine print of the proposal actually calls for a "transition" to independence. In the case of the DEI the Japanese would be the caretakers; the British, Americans, French, etc. would act in the same capacity in their own spheres of interest. Depending on the approach taken this would result in anything from full independence relatively quickly to a sham "free" government that is nothing more than a puppet of the sponsoring state. The latter, no doubt, is what the Japanese would aim for.

I think, though, that any powers slow to grant independence might find that they are in for the same sort of surprise the colonial powers received in real life when they tried to restore things to the way they were before the war.

[Cuttlefish]

November 6, 1943

Location: Kwajalein
Course: None
Attached to: TF 4
Mission: Air Combat
System Damage: 1
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 451

Orders: Await further orders

---

“You are going to read the ink right off those letters,” Shiro tells Riku. “How many times have you read them now, anyway?”

Riku looks up from his hammock. “I don’t know,” he says. “I’ve lost count.” He holds up one of the letters. “Look at those characters,” he says admiringly. “Does she not have a fine hand? Delicate and artistic, yet strong and decisive.”

Shiro grins. “She is Shun’s daughter,” he says. “I wouldl bet there is some steel under her fair exterior. Seriously, though, your children are going to want to see those letters some day. How many are you supposed to have, again?”

“Six,” says Riku. “The fortune teller said three girls and three boys.”

“Right,” says Shiro. “So when you are done reading those letters over and over, maybe sometime next summer, put them someplace safe.”

“Safe? We’re aboard a destroyer in the middle of the war. How can anyplace be safe?”

“Well, at least waterproof,” Shiro says. “That way if your broken, lifeless body is hauled out of the ocean the letters will be intact.”

Riku throws a shoe at Shiro. “You idiot,” he says amiably. “If I get killed there won’t be any children to care about the letters. Besides, that won’t happen. The fortune teller, remember?

“Oh yes,” says Shiro. “That’s right. Remind me to stick close to you if we get into trouble!”

“Not to worry,” says Riku. “We have Captain Ishii and Benzaiten to look out for us. Nothing is going to happen to this ship.”

As if aware her name has been spoken Benzaiten lifts her head above the rim of her crate by the bulkhead and regards Riku with unblinking eyes. Her tongue darts out once, then again, and then she subsides. The two men can hear a faint slithering noise from the crate as she settles back into a comfortable position. Shiro and Riku look at each other.

“There is a sign if I have ever seen one,” says Shiro after a moment.

“But what kind of sign?” says Riku. “Good, or bad?”

“Who can say?” Shiro answers.

[tocaff]

The build up...CF you're teasing us...

[histgamer]

One could aruge tactically Sharpsburg was a victory of the south seeing as the Union attacked and didn't drive the CSA from the field. Lee even held his ground the following day without the Union attacking, though that was due to McClellan's own confidence problem. Though without making this a civil war topic I will say that McClellan was prolly the best union army commander when it came to battlefield tactics, not once did lee ever catch his army with its pants down. If he just had the ability of Grant to see his army take heavy losses he woulda won the war in 62. No other union commander prolly could have done that because the CSA was strong enough to take heavy losses in 62 and replace them, Grant wouldnt have won it then.

Well when i say win it i mean take richmond. you can debate if in 62 that would have lead to the end of the war or not.

[tocaff]

Nah, Americans are a stubborn lot that until recent history were good at ending wars.

[Barb]

“Not to worry,” says Riku. “We have Captain Ishii and Benzaiten to look out for us. Nothing is going to happen to this ship.”
I had a VERY VERY VERY BAD FEELING about this...[:(]