The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

I know. today for example we "intercepted" them but none of them resulted shot down. I read it just as "the flight was intercepted" but that doesn't mean we halted the flight mission.
However the simple fact that he is finally evacuating after 5 long months means he has abbandoned the idea of taking Tulagi once for good.
We can now start thinking about an advance.
We're planning to land at Russell Island in the next 2 months. 22k men are present there. Will be tough...will be bloody...will be glorious. Will be our first landing experience.

[Cribtop]

Why not hit a less glorious target and cut those 22K troops off just like the forces at Tulagi? I know Rader has built up the whole chain, but are you selecting the easiest target with the biggest strategic payoff?

[Canoerebel]

With rare exceptions, it is never a good idea to hit the enemy where he is dug in and prepared in big numbers.  Usually (not always), there are better and less expensive options.
 
Now, you might make an solid argument that hitting Russell is one of the rare exceptions, but unless you can make that argument convincingly, you're making a mistake.
 
P.S.  Sorry for the negative tone - it's not intended that way.  You have done a remarkable job fighting off a much more experienced opponent.  I think everyone is impressed with your performance.  I know I am.

[SoliInvictus202]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

With rare exceptions, it is never a good idea to hit the enemy where he is dug in and prepared in big numbers.  Usually (not always), there are better and less expensive options.

Now, you might make an solid argument that hitting Russell is one of the rare exceptions, but unless you can make that argument convincingly, you're making a mistake.

P.S.  Sorry for the negative tone - it's not intended that way.  You have done a remarkable job fighting off a much more experienced opponent.  I think everyone is impressed with your performance.  I know I am.

normally I would totally agree with you here - but didn't Greyjoy already look at all the "other" options - having considered his current deployment?

from what I have read he isn't ready to pull anything off quickly in India or the DEI... - and as rader's flanks are apparently well defended (Marshalls, Marianas and Bonins)

am I missing anything here? - but from what I see here there aren't all that many options for an offensive operations - furthermore Greyjoy seems to have focused a substantial part of his offensive capability in the SWPAC sector...(and with my recent Hokkaido ****-up I know what it takes to reposition an entire army...)

I know that all this doesn't change the fact that attacking an enemy where he expects you to is never a good idea....unless your name is Sir Douglas Haig and you always attack where the enemy is strongest...

[GreyJoy]

8, 9 June 1943

Rader has really moved back all his planes from the "line" in the Solomons. The KB is moving down to Rabaul but up to the big jap HUB is SWPAC (rabaul) there are now only two bases that hold enough planes (but no bombers!) - Shortland and Buka.
That's really really strange...what is he doing!?

In India another turn of "peace"....

At Tulagi I slaughtered another bunch of ACMs...i sent in the PG Charleston and PC Taney...with their big guns they killed those little support ships like butterflies...


Then he sent to Tulagi a number of Mavis and Emilies to pick up his troops...55 (no jokes, fifty five!!!!)of those big guys have been shot up by my CAP that arrived in strenght on the place (nearly 200 allied fighters guarding different altitudes...)...


Now, for what concerns Russell.... i should have explained better the Solomons situation....

Rader has put AT LEAST 20k men in every single base south of Rabaul.
Russell has 22 LCUs
Thousands Ships Bay 21
Auki 19
Munda and Rekata Bay 20
Shortland 30

...and so on....

wherever option i chose i'll find big and strong opposition...so imho is better to chose a target close enough and with a decent facilities (port and AF) so that i can easily set up and prepare for another jump.

It won't be easy nor clean but i think i can manage to starve and bomb the island long enough to smooth it...exactly what he has not done with Tulagi.
I think i'll need at least 2000 AV for this operation. I have that strenght at hand. I just need to prepare the place for my guys...but FIRST i have to understand his plans for this region....which are very "foggy" to me at the moment

[GreyJoy]

And i don't wanna do John Wayne...i won't invade every single island. The plan is to invade Russell and avoid Thousands and Auki...then go for Rekata Bay and Avoid Munda and Vella la Vella...etc etc

[paullus99]

Since he seems to be flooding the likely avenue of advances with troops, this means he's got to be robbing Peter to pay Paul - you telegraph where you are moving & he's throwing everything in your face to scare you.

If you could find an area that he isn't expecting you to hit, I believe you'd be able to find some fairly weak areas to take advantage of.

[JeffroK]

What about a left hook through Tagula, Rossel, Woodlark, Milne Bay etc. (Even a right hook Ocean, Nauru, Ponape, a bit more risky)
The bases look empty, might be some cheap wins
 
Use PT's (as you have) to raid his bases in the Solomons and make resupply or evacuation risky for him
 
Cut him off (by air interdiction) from Rabaul, how many of those 100,000 troops will he get out?
 
IMHO, if you go head to head you might make Bougainville by the end of the year and have got little to show except attrition (who mentioned Haig??)

[Cribtop]

The left hook is appealing if you can take the islands in question, but between KB and IJN LBA it is a long leap.

The right hook sounds interesting, and I notice that Ontong Java is open (although I can't remember the SPS of that base, may not be worth it).

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I know. today for example we "intercepted" them but none of them resulted shot down. I read it just as "the flight was intercepted" but that doesn't mean we halted the flight mission.
However the simple fact that he is finally evacuating after 5 long months means he has abbandoned the idea of taking Tulagi once for good.
We can now start thinking about an advance.
We're planning to land at Russell Island in the next 2 months. 22k men are present there. Will be tough...will be bloody...will be glorious. Will be our first landing experience.

Intercepted means that they are turned back. He might lose one or two as well. However, if your LRCAP is small then most of the transport will complete their mission and supply either gets in or troops out. If you want to really nail him then put about 100 fighters over the base on LRCAP for a turn. You will shoot some transport down then and if he is making a major effort with a mass of transports you might shoot a heck of a lot down.

Oop..sorry, I see you did just that. He probably won't try it much more.

[jmalter]

i've got like, 0 EXP to call upon, but i wonder if the island-hopping strategy can work in AE?

since there's no intel on the supply-level of bypassed base-hexes, they're always a potential threat - and the combat power one devotes to suppressing that threat is subtracted from the forces needed at the point of attack.

oh well, i guess that's where the EXP comes into play.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

i've got like, 0 EXP to call upon, but i wonder if the island-hopping strategy can work in AE?

since there's no intel on the supply-level of bypassed base-hexes, they're always a potential threat - and the combat power one devotes to suppressing that threat is subtracted from the forces needed at the point of attack.

oh well, i guess that's where the EXP comes into play.

It works just fine, and you have to do it just like in the real deal. It is impossible to take all the big defended bases. I have seen some Japanese players cheese a bit by flying supply or sending supply subs to an isolated rear base and then basing a kamikaze unit there to pounce on you unprotected rear shipping lanes but it is more of a nuisance than anything else. Sooner or later the isolated bases run out of supply and it is hard for the Japanese player to get more than a trickle to them.

[jmalter]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
It works just fine, and you have to do it just like in the real deal.

hear that, crsutton. so i'd guess it's less about assembling *overwhelming force*, & more about 'necessary assets', such as adequate Recon & NavSearch. it's about time i moved up from playing the AI into the real deal.

<please excuse the threadjack>

[GreyJoy]

Ok guys, now everything is clear. Rader was getting ready for a MASSIVE "Dunkirk" operation to rescue his army stuck at Tulagi.
&nbsp;
Suddenly, on June 10th 1943, Russell, Thousands and Auki were swimming in fighter planes. My recon counted nearly 1100 fighters between these 3 bases.
During the night of the 9/10th 2 japanese SCTFs, composed each by 5 DDs swept Tulagi in order to deal with my PTs.
PG Charleston and PC Taney (poor lonely bastards) encountered a sudden death and weren't even able to shoot a single bullet. Same for DMS Hopkins, while my PTs did their best, sinking 2 japanese destroyers in a serie of 15 naval encounters!...i lost 13 PTs in the process....
Then he came with a sumber of "E" class and SCs...but instead of subs they found my DMSs and got mauled.
&nbsp;
Finally arrived a SCTF of mine, composed of 7 old class DDs....they were supposed to deal with his ACMs so they weren't the best...we exchanged blows with the japanese DDs but 2 of my DDs ate a torp and sunk immediately, while 2 others were seriously damaged. However we left burning and sinking at least 2 more enemies...
&nbsp;
So the naval battles ended with a little jap victory, with 2 allied DD sunk, 1 big PC and 1 big PG plus the PTs, in exchange of 2 jap DDs and 2 more badly damaged...
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Then it arrived the fast transport TFs to pick up his troops...
&nbsp;
&nbsp;Pre-Invasion action off Tulagi (114,137) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force
&nbsp;
1295 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
&nbsp;
Japanese Ships
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CL Abukuma
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Kikuzuki, Shell hits 5
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Asagao
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Mikazuki, Shell hits 1,&nbsp; on fire
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Nagatsuki, Shell hits 3,&nbsp; on fire
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Asakaze, Shell hits 2
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kogane Maru, Shell hits 1
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Konsan Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kenan Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kensin Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kasyu Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Ikuta Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Hirota Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Hokutai Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Hakkaisan Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Akagane Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Oite
&nbsp;
Japanese ground losses:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3013 casualties reported
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Squads: 94 destroyed, 92 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 8 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Engineers: 14 destroyed, 23 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Vehicles lost 5 (2 destroyed, 3 disabled)
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Allied ground losses:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7 casualties reported
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
nvasion Support action off Tulagi (114,137) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force
&nbsp;
721 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
&nbsp;
Japanese Ships
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CL Abukuma, Shell hits 2
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Kikuzuki, Shell hits 15,&nbsp; heavy fires,&nbsp; heavy damage
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Asagao
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Harukaze
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Asakaze
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; APD Nagatsuki, Shell hits 1
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Konsan Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kenan Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kogane Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kensin Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Kasyu Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Ikuta Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Hirota Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Hokutai Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Hakkaisan Maru
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PB Akagane Maru
&nbsp;
Japanese ground losses:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 587 casualties reported
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Squads: 14 destroyed, 17 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 15 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Guns lost 82 (28 destroyed, 54 disabled)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Vehicles lost 42 (13 destroyed, 29 disabled)
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
As you can see our costal guns didn't do the wonderfull job of the last time and, despite the number of guns firing, the Japs managed to get&nbsp;back their&nbsp;ships more or less in good shape.
Mines weren't a big factor cause his midjet subs got them all....(it seems that nearly 18 SSX subs struck mines at Tulagi today...)
Only a couple of PB and APDs were sunk by mines...
&nbsp;
However, after the 2nd day of dunkirking our land troops bombed his divisions at Tulagi and discovered that this mission managed to pick up something like 250 AVs worth of troops[X(]...in one single night![:@]...but, using the numbers of troop indicated in the combat report (i know there's FOW) it also seems that "only" 4/5000 men left the beaches...
&nbsp;
Among those&nbsp;4/5k&nbsp;men something like 1000 were for sure destroyed during the loading operations by my CD guns...so, in the end, most of his units are still present.
&nbsp;
However i do not understimate the fact that when he landed there (in Jan 43) he had nearly 80,000 men for more than 2100 AVs and now, after 6 months, only 50,000 japanese are still present on the beaches...so in a way or in another one he managed to save something like 10/15,000 men (i estimate that at least 15k men died during these months).
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
The other important news is that a GREAT surface group is now stationing at Thousands Ships bay, composed of the following ships:
&nbsp;

Japanese Ships
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BB Kirishima
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BB Nagato
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BB Mutsu
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BB Fuso
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BB Yamashiro
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Takao
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Atago
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Maya
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Chokai
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Myoko
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Mikuma
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Suzuya
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Kumano
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CA Aoba
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; CL Nagara
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Shimakaze
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Kazegumo
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Tamanami
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Natsushio
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Yukikaze
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Isokaze
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DD Arashi
&nbsp;

&nbsp;
We have to decide what to do now...he has an incredible number of planes and i'm sure the KB is lingering in the shades somewhere... he has 5 battleships supported by CAs and CLs...and he's trying to save his precious experienced army.... should i committ or should i use only minimal assets in order to make him pay a little but withour risking anything important?...

[GreyJoy]

Amazing how Tulagi in this game looks alike Guadalcanal in RL....[&o]

[GreyJoy]

The question is....what is the best and safest way to fight against a SCTF like that? 5 BBs, 8 CAs, 1 CL and 7 DDs...??

[String]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The question is....what is the best and safest way to fight against a SCTF like that? 5 BBs, 8 CAs, 1 CL and 7 DDs...??

Several smaller, more efficient BB TF's is my guess. 2 BB + 6 DD for example, preceded by PT's

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The question is....what is the best and safest way to fight against a SCTF like that? 5 BBs, 8 CAs, 1 CL and 7 DDs...??

A Sqn of F111's

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: String

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

The question is....what is the best and safest way to fight against a SCTF like that? 5 BBs, 8 CAs, 1 CL and 7 DDs...??

Several smaller, more efficient BB TF's is my guess. 2 BB + 6 DD for example, preceded by PT's

Ok, and what about my modern CLs (Brooklin and Cleveland Class)? Shouldn't i committ them?

Here are the forces at my disposal (consider the 2 days turn and consider also the KB which is east of Rabaul....):

For the first night i can arrive at Tulagi with the following forces:

1 SCTF composed of 8 Mahan Class DDs
1 SCTF composed of 6 Farragut Class DDs

For the first day i can have at Tulagi teh following forces:

C) 1 SCTF composed of 2 CAs (1 New Orleans and 1 Whichita Class CA), 3 CLs (2 Omaha Class CLs and 1 Brooklin Class CL) and 7 Fletcher Class DDs
D) 1 SCTF composed of 2 CAs (Australia and Hawkins), 4 Cleveland Class CLs and 7 Fletcher Class DDs

E) 1 SCTF composed of 2 BBs (Indiana and Massachusset Class BBs), 3 CAs (Pensacola and New Orleans Class) and 7 various DDs
F) 1 SCTF composed of 2 BBs (both North Carolina Class BBs) 3 CAs (Northampton Class CAs) and 7 different DDs

Please consider that i can change the composition only mixing C with D and E with F, cause these "couples" are based in different locations.

I find these TFs pretty balanced, with the DDs storming the base at night, so engaging what he has and possibly making him expending ammos, followed during the day by the bulk of my naval forces...


It's also possible that moving his BBs to Thousands Ships Bay is a trap. His KB is very close now and could come in without much of a problem.
He has enough LBA fighters to sweep my CAP to oblivion and then let the KB demolish my surface forces... I do see a big risk here...Rader is smart and the trap could easily take place.

Imagine this scenario.
I move in my surface assets to Tulagi or Lunga...whatever....
He moves back his bait-BBs...when the day comes he starts to sweep with 1000 fighters Tulagi, Lunga and Tassafaronga. I have 500 fighters there...i could easily tangle with them....but my fighters will be exausted, with no ammo and no operational points left when the "air2sea" phase will take on.... then the KB will arrive, along with Betties...positioning in the right place to strike TLT with ease....my ships will be out of CAP and an easy prey for the enemy's torpedo bombers... an easy victory for Japan...a terrible defeat for the Allies....

[String]

I&nbsp; THINK, and this just my opinion, that you aim for as many TF's as possible

You have a total of 4 BB's, 10 CA, 5 good CL's and 2 crappy ones and a grand total of 28 DD's. The DD's dictate the amount of TF's you can create, and right now, with 28, the number seems to be at 5. This means 3 TF's with 6 DD's and 2 TF's with 5 DD's. I'd suggest the following:

BBTF1: 2 Old BB's + 2 Omaha CL's (they have torps) + 6 DD
BBTF2: 2 new BB's + CA Australia and CA Hawkins (both have torps again) + 6 DD

CTF1: 2x CA + 2x CL + 5DD
CTF2: 2x CA + 2x CL + 5 DD
CTF3: 2x CA (one of the Wichita) + CL + 6DD (fletchers)