Letters from Iwo Jima

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

The fact that you cant tell the difference between defending those Germans or Japanese who didnt commit any warcrime, and those who did speaks volumes of you.

The German and Japanese people, collectively, were complicit in their respective regimes barbaric behavior in war.

"complicit
adj. Associated with or participating in a questionable act or a crime"

Let's review some of the "questionable acts" that quite possibly your ordinary German was probably aware of at the time ...

- The disappearance (in the millions) of people, their businesses and homes ransacked.
- The invasions of Poland, France, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
- The use of "terror bombing" on civilian cities
- The use of unrestricted submarine warfare on civilian merchants
- The use of slave labor in German industry
- The stench in the air coming from vast guarded camps in the countryside

Now, while your ordinary innocent German probably didn't personally kill any Jews, bomb any cities, etc. etc., I somehow find it very difficult to believe they were unaware that such things were occurring.

Yet, nobody did anything about it.

Even the supposedly "honorable" German army, who could, at any time have put a bullet in Hitler's head, failed to do so.

How in the hell can you not get it through your head that when millions and I mean millions of warcrimes are being committed by your countrymen with your knowledge, and you do nothing, that you are complicit in the carrying out of those crimes.

You are an apologist of the worst order.

Sickening...

Ray (alias Lava)

[Dino]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

You don't get to determine after the fact what things we could have removed from the equation...

Why not? Isn't that what's called a history lesson?

Yes we did (note the past tense) lump them together - because they were the ENEMY!

For the purpose of killing them in a battle - it's fine.

For the purpose of easing one's conscience by pretending that they were all animals - it's not.

I have shot at enemy in battles...fully aware that some of them might be better men than myself. It didn't impede my performance nor lessen my resolve.

[Dino]

The German and Japanese people, collectively, were complicit in their respective regimes barbaric behavior in war.

Yeah...and Jews were complicit in killing the Christ.

Now, where did I hear that garbage before? [8|]

Just keep hitting that "increase reputation" button...

I'm out of here!

[Knuckles_85]

List of Swedish Interment camps:

Storsien
Naartijärvi south of Luleå
Öxnered at Vänersborg
Grytan outside Östersund
Bercut, a boat for sailors outside Dalarö
Vindeln: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943 (actually a labor camp)
Stensele: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943 (actually a labor camp)
Lövnäsvallen outside Sveg

[Knuckles_85]

About seven or eight internment camps were used in Sweden during World War II.

The most famous is probably Storsien outside Kalix in Norrbotten where about 300-370 communists, syndicalists and pacifists were kept during the winter 1939-1940.
Naartijärvi south of Luleå,
Öxnered at Vänersborg,
Grytan outside Östersund and
a boat for sailors outside Dalarö .
Vindeln: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943
Stensele: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943
A possible eighth camp.
In May 1941 a total of ten camps for 3000-3500 were planned, but towards the end of 1941 the plans were put on ice and in 1943 the last camp was closed down.

The navy had at least one special detainment ship for communists and "troublemakers"
the Dalarö boat

http://www.historymania.com/american_hi ... ation_camp

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

ORIGINAL: mlc82

ORIGINAL: morvwilson


We hear copious amounts of complaints about civillian casualties now, but not then. Could it be there was a better understanding in the past?

On this point, I would think it more likely that in the past, one couldn't just hop on the internet and see a video posted of the civilians being slaughtered as one can now if so inclined. I would guess that this just wasn't widely shown/discussed outside of the militaries involved in WWII (or the people being bombed), plus at the time it wouldn't have been possible to skim over 6+ years of it in a history book. I would say there was actually LESS understanding, or at least no way for many to actually see what was happening to civilians.

Also, IMO the older style of propanganda just doesn't work anymore either. I'm thinking of WWII era posters from all sides depicting everyone from the opposing countries as savages, evil, etc. In the day and age in which I can log onto the internet and talk to people in almost any country, this sort of thing doesn't cut it anymore. You can't convince me that a whole nation of people are "bad" (although it isn't hard for me to believe that their leader(s) are charlatans using their people only for their own interests- and I feel the same about our supposed "leaders" here in the US as well) when I can log on and talk to some of them about playing computer games, bodybuilding, or whatever else hobbies that I share with them.

What about the American experience during the Civil War? Gen. Sherman's march to the sea for instance.
There were still some living vets of that war during WW2. I am sure others can present examples of other unpleasant things happening in prior conflicts that would be in LIVING memory during WW2.

It appears to me that while communications tech. has vastly improved since WW2, understanding has slipped.
Understanding of what war is and why they need to be fought I think has slipped.

"All it takes for the forced of evil to rule this world is for good people to do nothing."

Sherman took great care to not to hurt civilians and avoid conflict. Having his men running around the countryside coomitting atrocities would have undermined his goal. Sherman was a man with a sense of honor. A lot of things he was accused of have not been proven to be true. His scorched earth policy was sound.

[mdiehl]

Eh, no. The issue here was "did Sweden ever put its citizens in concentration camps because of their ethnicity.

Yes, they did. They also interned Swedes for being communists, pacifists, anarchists, &c.

The issue was not, and has never been "what condition were the internees held in"...that is just something you are trying to add to the discussion now.

Of course that is the issue. Was it not the issue, you would not be attempting to cast American interment camps as somehow "akin to" Japanese and German ones. What's your purpose here? You managed to somehow find the barest technical reason for mentioning American internment camps and Axis ones in the same breath, despite the world of difference in purpose, conditions, and consequences of the various programs? Give me a break. Yours was an ethnocentric smear job directed at America. Nothing more, nothing less. Your comparison of American internment camps with Axis ones is ludicrous and invidious.

Oh, but no one has suggested that the two kinds of treatment were comparable.

You make the comparison, and an invidious one at that, merely by invoking the American internment camps and the Axis ones in the same paragraph. It is your basic racism and bigotry that causes you to treat them as homologous phenomena.

What I have said is that only those three nations put their own citizens in camps because of their ethnicity.

Your claim is not correct. The actual list of nations that improsoned their own citizens on account of ethnicity not only includes the Axis powers (including Italy, whom you neglected to mention), but also Vichy France, Great Britain, Poland (ethnic Ukrainians in 1939), and, IIRC, Rumania and Hungary.

Sweden imprisoned her own citizens for being of the wrong political persuasion, and Sweden imprisoned citizens of other nations for being refugees. But these were not "refugee camps."

Surely you are capable of understanding the difference between those two issues?

I am capable of recognizing your ethnocentric motive for finding the most convoluted technical grounds for suggesting that there is any legitimate basis of comparison between Axis death camps and American internment camps, and for your claim that only America and the Axis (rather than in addition the well-documented pattern of several European nations doing the same thing) locked people up because of ethnicity. You are transparent.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Dino

ORIGINAL: mjk428

You don't get to determine after the fact what things we could have removed from the equation...

Why not? Isn't that what's called a history lesson?

Actually its called hindsight ,which by the way does not equate to wisdom [;)]

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

About seven or eight internment camps were used in Sweden during World War II.

The most famous is probably Storsien outside Kalix in Norrbotten where about 300-370 communists, syndicalists and pacifists were kept during the winter 1939-1940.
Naartijärvi south of Luleå,
Öxnered at Vänersborg,
Grytan outside Östersund and
a boat for sailors outside Dalarö .
Vindeln: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943
Stensele: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943
A possible eighth camp.
In May 1941 a total of ten camps for 3000-3500 were planned, but towards the end of 1941 the plans were put on ice and in 1943 the last camp was closed down.

The navy had at least one special detainment ship for communists and "troublemakers"
the Dalarö boat

http://www.historymania.com/american_hi ... ation_camp

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Lava


Now, while your ordinary innocent German probably didn't personally kill any Jews, bomb any cities, etc. etc., I somehow find it very difficult to believe they were unaware that such things were occurring.

Ray (alias Lava)

Oh no! You're a racist too?[X(][:D]

[Doggie]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

No, no, no, no!!! Historical evidence of Swedish concentration camps does not count because, because.... YORE A RASSCUST!!!!!! And the Japanese were better than you RACISSTS!!!!

You ignorant racists can't discuss anything because you're always inulting us intelligent people with your racism!!! And you're stupid, too. Nyah, nyah, nyah!!!!

[8|]




[/quote]

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Dino

Yes we did (note the past tense) lump them together - because they were the ENEMY!

For the purpose of killing them in a battle - it's fine.

For the purpose of easing one's conscience by pretending that they were all animals - it's not.

Who are you to say what's fine re: someone's own conscience? Try to understand that in the latter case they may have been looked on as animals because of their behavior - not because of propaganda or racial prejudice.

When you're in a total war, you don't worry about referring to the enemy in a polically correct way for fear of offending the fragile sensibilities of Europeans decades later. Even if it might result in a strongly worded letter from the UN for the use of racially charged words like "they" and "them".

[06 Maestro]

I have a proposal that perhaps should be sent to the UN; detailed below.

Before any industrial complex, or military position can be bomb, shelled, or placed under any direct fire, certain precautions must be made to insure that only the guilty (those that support their own sides effort to win the armed conflict-be it war, insurrection, or police action) are put in harms way.
Be it resolved;
1.Prior to any attack, the Red Cross, Red Cresant, or UN representative will be notified in a timely manner to insure that all people (including civilians, military, and non uniformed military) can be interviewed to determine their “guilt” prior to any attack of any kind.
2.All enemy wounded must be treated on the same priority as the capturing powers wounded-even if the enemy wounded are holding grenades with the pin pulled.
3.Civilians in the surrounding proposed bombardment zone areas must be interviewed to determine guilt, and also, in the case of innocence, to be given written assurance that their property will not be harmed, if it is, the attacking power agrees to pay triple damages.
4.Industrial/corporate entities have the same rights as civilians as per paragraph 3.
5.Any incarceration of civilians, or non uniformed military in anything less than a 4 star hotel will be considered an act of genocide.

The funding of reparations must be accomplished prior to any hostilities. If one side does not have the appropriate funding to pay their likely portion of reparations, then the side/alliance with the funds available will deposit those funds for its opponent in addition to its own responsibilities of funding.

The signatory nations will abide by this UN treaty, even if the nation/entity which it finds itself at war with is not.

No retribution shall be enforced at the conclusion of a conflict on a non signatory nation/entity for violations of this UN treaty. Retribution may be enforced on a signatory power if so agreed upon, by secret ballot, by the Swedish Communist Party.

Any discussion of violations of this agreement by any individual, or group outside of the Halls of the United Nations will be considered an act of blatant racism. This crime will fall under the jurisdiction of the UN to prosecute in accordance with UN treaties and the will of General Assembly of the United Nations.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just a first draft, so I’m open to suggestions-feel free to chime in.
If only the world had an organization like the UN led by good hearted men in 1939 the war would have been-oops, uh,[&:]

[Cap Mandrake]

In the heat of world war between good and evil, resulting in the destruction of dozens of millions of living human souls, someone has to remain neutral to hold the gold reserves of the combatants and that sort of thing.

It is a tough job, but somebody has to do it. [;)]

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

List of Swedish Interment camps:

Storsien
Naartijärvi south of Luleå
Öxnered at Vänersborg
Grytan outside Östersund
Bercut, a boat for sailors outside Dalarö
Vindeln: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943 (actually a labor camp)
Stensele: constructed in Västerbotten in 1943 (actually a labor camp)
Lövnäsvallen outside Sveg

So, do you understand the difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp? Judging from this post of yours, you dont. Because we had both refugee camps and internment camps. We did not have concentration camps however.

And no, sorry, Storsien is still a made up location.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Doggie
blah blah

Heh, so now you are reduced to posting emoticons? Well, if you cant express yourself through the written word, then by all means, go ahead and post some drawings.

You really have contributed nothing to the disucssion in this thread...save some racist stereotypes, hateful outbursts and lots of irrelevant BS.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Yes, they did. They also interned Swedes for being communists, pacifists, anarchists, &c.

Not true. Ive been sitting here trying to understand where this notion comes from. What we did was we sent people to prison if they refused to report for duty when conscripted, but thats the only thing I can come up with. Most of those people were pacifists or anarchists I suppose. But sending someone to prison for breaking the law is hardly the same thing as sending someone to a concentration camp for being of a certain ethnicity.

Of course that is the issue. Was it not the issue, you would not be attempting to cast American interment camps as somehow "akin to" Japanese and German ones. What's your purpose here? You managed to somehow find the barest technical reason for mentioning American internment camps and Axis ones in the same breath, despite the world of difference in purpose, conditions, and consequences of the various programs? Give me a break. Yours was an ethnocentric smear job directed at America. Nothing more, nothing less. Your comparison of American internment camps with Axis ones is ludicrous and invidious.

Actually, the only reason we are even discussing concentration camps is because
1) I wanted to give an example of how stupid it is with stereotyping, and how wrong stereotyping can lead you.
2) It is of cource wrong to intern your own citizens in camps just because they have a certain ethnicity.

So, with that in mind. Do YOU agree to 1 and 2? We all know doggie dont, but how about you?

And no, since the only reason I brought the camps up was to show 1 and 2, the level of treatment in the camps is completely irrelevant to my point. You are the one who brought that up.

You make the comparison, and an invidious one at that, merely by invoking the American internment camps and the Axis ones in the same paragraph. It is your basic racism and bigotry that causes you to treat them as homologous phenomena.

Not really. That takes place in your head. If you read what I have posted, I have no where said or even indicated that the level of treatment in US, Japanese and German concentration camps were the same or even remotely similar. I wonder why you have interpreted my posts that way?

Your claim is not correct. The actual list of nations that improsoned their own citizens on account of ethnicity not only includes the Axis powers (including Italy, whom you neglected to mention), but also Vichy France, Great Britain, Poland (ethnic Ukrainians in 1939), and, IIRC, Rumania and Hungary.

Ok, feel free to post your sources for this.

Sweden imprisoned her own citizens for being of the wrong political persuasion, and Sweden imprisoned citizens of other nations for being refugees. But these were not "refugee camps."

No, we didnt put people in jail just because they had some sort of political persuation. We did put people in jail if they broke the law though, but that is an entirely different thing.

And a camp where we put refugees...thats not a refugee camp?

[Rainerle]

I substituted 'german and japan' through american in Lava's post: It is only me that did that and not Lava himself !

ORIGINAL: Lava

The american people, collectively, were complicit in their respective regimes barbaric behavior in war.

"complicit
adj. Associated with or participating in a questionable act or a crime"

Let's review some of the "questionable acts" that quite possibly your ordinary american was probably aware of at the time ...


- The use of "terror bombing" on civilian cities
- The use of unrestricted submarine warfare on civilian merchants


Now, while your ordinary innocent american probably didn't personally bomb any cities, etc. etc., I somehow find it very difficult to believe they were unaware that such things were occurring.

Yet, nobody did anything about it.
(snip)

How in the hell can you not get it through your head that when millions and I mean millions of warcrimes are being committed by your countrymen with your knowledge, and you do nothing, that you are complicit in the carrying out of those crimes.

You are an apologist of the worst order.

Sickening...

Ray (alias Lava)

See, I only substituted 'german and japan' through 'american'; deleted acouple of accusations (one warcrime or a million who cares) and where does this leave us ....? Stereotyping of the finest.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Lava
The German and Japanese people, collectively, were complicit in their respective regimes barbaric behavior in war.

blah blah

You are an apologist of the worst order.

Sickening...

Ray (alias Lava)

The only thing that is sickening here is the bigoted and racist views put forth by doggie and others.

As for your post here...Maybe the civilians were aware of the warcrimes, therefore they must share the guilt?
They didnt commit any warcrimes themselves, but I think they knew about the warcrimes? What kind of idiotic reasoning is that?

First, I can see that you have thrown all moral and legal considerations out the window. You think they knew, so therefore they share the guilt. Im not even going to touch the complete retardedness of such a position.

Second, what of the civilians who didnt know. Because surely, even you must understand that there were such civilians. What of them? What had they done that made them deserve death in the firebombings? That four year old kid? What possible crime had he committed that made him deserve death at the hands of LeMays bombers?

There are innocents in all wars, and the attempts by you and doggie to pretend that there were no innocent japanese is truly disgusting.

[Knuckles_85]

An Internment Camp is a Concentration Camp. The term Concentration Camp was first used during the Boer Wars and was regularly used in place of the term Internment Camps. The term Concentration Camp started to have bad connotations when they were link to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. I've looked up 6 sources now and they all say Storsien is very real.