Price?

[Bamilus]

Well I went ahead and bit the bullet. The ingame tutorial movies are AWESOME and very helpful.

I understand this is a lot of money for everyone and I'm not criticizing people for not buying it. But if you're holding back for gameplay/quality reasons and not money reasons....DON'T. This is my first Panther Games (well, technically I got HTTR a LONG time ago but never played it) purchase and I can't wait to dig in. I'm already very impressed with the quality.

[Chief Rudiger]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I just verified that it's there. I'm also using Firefox. Are you blocking pop-ups? Here's a screenshot of what I just saw 30 seconds ago:

The page you display is not the link given in my above post, i.e. the one advertised on this forum. Navigating via Google to the Matrix Online Store in both my IE and Mozilla set ups does present me with a pop up, or at least notifies me that a pop up wants to open, when i select the UK specific page.

No pop up, or request-to-allow-pop-up-to-pop-up appears when using the advertised link.

[Rosseau]

ORIGINAL: Ron

In my mind this is gouging long time customers pure and simple, regardless of the justifications about development costs, research etc, which to me sound a little manufactured anyways. To use an example -

Not too long ago, I guided a long time wargamer back into the fold with Combat Mission ShockForce and its modules and had to talk about value, costs etc; that was an easy sell compared to this! For $70 you got the base game plus the two modules which included the Marine and British forces, several new scenarios and campaigns, scenario and map editor and literally hundreds of hours of gameplay. I argued development costs because of the research and artist work into new units and the new animations in a 3D environment, plus the continual development of the base engine included with the upgrades.

With BFTB there is no such thing at $80! It's the same base modified engine from HTTR and COTA, and this battle is probably the easiest to research since it's been done so many times. How will this appeal to anyone other than the hardcore wargamers? From comments here, even many wargamers and fans of the series are alienated. Sure if you want it, you will buy it regardless that's a strawman argument. I don't get this pricing other than to milk the customers. Count this wargamer out as well.

Not to go off-topic, but Ron brings up an unpleasant memory (for me) that might make everyone else feel better.
I bought CMSF and all the add-ons but had very little time to play them. Then I upgraded my video card (Invidia to ATI 4650) and now CMSF games don't work anymore.

As far as Battlefront is concerned, that is my tough luck and it is all ATI's fault for some OpenGL issue they have. Meaning, ATI should come out with a patch, and not Battlefront! (Please PM me if there is a solution to this problem)

Talk about alienating a customer. Of course, I got over it and happily bought Kursk 43.

[Wolfe1759]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

The page you display is not the link given in the my above post, i.e. the one advertised on this forum. Navigating via Google to the Matrix Online Store in both my IE and Mozilla set ups does present me with a pop up, or at least notifies me that a pop up wants to open, when i select the UK specific page.

No pop up, or request-to-allow-pop-up-to-pop-up appears when using the advertised link.

I've bought 27 games from Matrix over the years through the UK store (using IE and Google Chrome) and have never once seen the pop up refering to VAT.

[beatoangelico]

I would suggest Steve Jobs would disagree with you...

this one is like the previous Ferrari comparison...totally out of place. A Ferrari and (to some extent) the Apple products are status symbols. I think we can agree that wargames are definitely not status symbols.

Now finally the game is out, and instead of talking about it's qualities and sharing strategies and ideas, we're discussing price policy and giving economical advice to Matrix. All of you who believe, from an economical perspective, it was unwise of Matrix to sell it at a higher price tag, I think you're wrong. These guys probably aren't stupid and did their homework.

I'm sure Matrix and Panther Games have thinked hard about the pricing issue, just like I'm sure that they knew that a price like this one would cause a big turmoil [;)]. So, generally speaking, I don't see the point in complaining about the complains [:)] If you have bought it you already have "spoken" very clearly to Matrix. But who did look forward to BFTB and won't buy because of the price hasn't got many ways to express his position other than come here and write something.

[Sheytan]

Precisely why I stopped buying thier games after CK came out. I had EU1-3, and Ck bieng the last title I purchased. Shame really because some of the games really were great concepts. CK for example reminded me alot of the old online game Hundred Years War, with the dynastic aspect of the game. Ironically it was probably the only part of the game that really interested me.

[Duck Doc]

I have read through this thread & am impressed about the reaction to the price of the game. I guess it all boils down to this question: is any game worth $100 &, if so, is this the game? I have my own opinion but because I don't have a machine with the horsepower to run BftB I won't try to give a dead horse another big whack other than to say that if there was a short list of games worth $100 this Panther game/ battle sim would be high on that list (& has been).

I can't tell you the amount of money I have spent on games that have not thrilled me in the past. When I was a master of the universe & had a lot of coin coming in I would not hesitate to drop whatever to satisfy my cravings. If a game came along that looked interesting I would get it. Most disappointed me & languished somewhere in the dark spaces of my hard drive. But a few made the cut & I played a lot. But I consider this the price of admission or "you got to kiss a lot of frogs until you find your prince."

What I want to say is that I don't regret spending any of what I have spent & mostly wasted & I have spent a lot. I don't spend so much anymore & I don't begrudge anybody having a hard time coming up with $100 in discretionary income to put down on anything. Looking back it has been a lot of fun & I don't consider anything a loss. I have got more than I paid for in return.

Having been asked to briefly be a part of COTA testing I can assure you that this is a quality game engine & is indeed well worth the $100. Whether you spend or not is not the point. This product is that good. If you are afraid it isn't going to be a keeper then wait for the demo. Don't take my word for it. Ask anybody who has played COTA or the previous release. I am considering getting a new machine & BftB is one of the game releases that may drive that purchase.

Some things are worth $100. And times & realities have changed. It costs a heap more to bring this kind of game out. If we don't buy they will not build. It is this simple.

Is this the end of quality pc wargaming?

[Sheytan]

I do not own any of the other titles they make. So frankly I think you are reaching when you make the comment about the death of quality gaming. Hell I am playing the Third Age mod for Medieval TW2. It rocks...and its free! Oh and I only bought Medieval TW2 to play this mod.

At any rate one thing is clear about the comments here regarding the price of this product. Quite a few folks will not be buying it. It is that simple. Another simple conclusion is, IF the price is lowered they will sell more copies. Again all simple conclusions.

ORIGINAL: Dale H

I have read through this thread & am impressed about the reaction to the price of the game. I guess it all boils down to this question: is any game worth $100 &, if so, is this the game? I have my own opinion but because I don't have a machine with the horsepower to run BftB I won't try to give a dead horse another big whack other than to say that if there was a short list of games worth $100 this Panther game/ battle sim would be high on that list (& has been).

I can't tell you the amount of money I have spent on games that have not thrilled me in the past. When I was a master of the universe & had a lot of coin coming in I would not hesitate to drop whatever to satisfy my cravings. If a game came along that looked interesting I would get it. Most disappointed me & languished somewhere in the dark spaces of my hard drive. But a few made the cut & I played a lot. But I consider this the price of admission or "you got to kiss a lot of frogs until you find your prince."

What I want to say is that I don't regret spending any of what I have spent & mostly wasted & I have spent a lot. I don't spend so much anymore & I don't begrudge anybody having a hard time coming up with $100 in discretionary income to put down on anything. Looking back it has been a lot of fun & I don't consider anything a loss. I have got more than I paid for in return.

Having been asked to briefly be a part of COTA testing I can assure you that this is a quality game engine & is indeed well worth the $100. Whether you spend or not is not the point. This product is that good. If you are afraid it isn't going to be a keeper then wait for the demo. Don't take my word for it. Ask anybody who has played COTA or the previous release. I am considering getting a new machine & BftB is one of the game releases that may drive that purchase.

Some things are worth $100. And times & realities have changed. It costs a heap more to bring this kind of game out. If we don't buy they will not build. It is this simple.

Is this the end of quality pc wargaming?

[pad152]

High Pricing, two solutions

1. I think $60 is tops for a PC game in this market, Matrix needs to breakup their big expensive games ($55-$60 game) then ($20-$25 for the game editor/expansion pack). This way is the price isn't a breaker at release and if people like it, they will buy the add-on(s) later. I hope they do this with War in the East, so we don't see another $80 game!

2. Trade in some of your old games at (NWS http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/ ) for store credit against the purchase for BFTB to lower your cost.

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: pad152

High Pricing, two solutions

1. I think $60 is tops for a PC game in this market, Matrix needs to breakup their big expensive games ($55-$60 game) then ($20-$25 for the game editor/expansion pack). This way is the price isn't a breaker at release and if people like it, they will buy the add-on(s) later. I hope they do this with War in the East, so we don't see another $80 game!

2. Trade in some of your old games at (NWS http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/ ) for store credit against the purchase for BFTB to lower your cost.

I agree, if BftB is $80 just for the Digital Download, I'm afraid to see how much War in the East will cost.[X(]

Definitely agree with #2....I've trade in a few games to Chris Dean at NWS(Coolest and nicest fellow you will ever meet) and I have to say he is VERY fair when it comes to used games. He will give quite abit more than most other places offer for used games.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: pad152

High Pricing, two solutions

1. I think $60 is tops for a PC game in this market, Matrix needs to breakup their big expensive games ($55-$60 game) then ($20-$25 for the game editor/expansion pack). This way is the price isn't a breaker at release and if people like it, they will buy the add-on(s) later. I hope they do this with War in the East, so we don't see another $80 game!

2. Trade in some of your old games at (NWS http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/ ) for store credit against the purchase for BFTB to lower your cost.

3. Bundle old games with the package that already had breakeven and no cost to maintain (not being patched anymore).

[Renato]

I'm sorry and a little dismayed by a such strong reaction to the price.

After all I spent 105,83€ for EU3 plus the extensions (an excellent game), and I'm glad.
I regret more the 34,98€ spent for HoI3, which I never play because is completely unbalanced even after the 1.4 patch.

Everybody should evaluate what are his expectations from the game and vote with his wallet.
Personal attacks are out of place.

[beatoangelico]

1. I think $60 is tops for a PC game in this market, Matrix needs to breakup their big expensive games ($55-$60 game) then ($20-$25 for the game editor/expansion pack). This way is the price isn't a breaker at release and if people like it, they will buy the add-on(s) later. I hope they do this with War in the East, so we don't see another $80 game!

I don't know about games based on long campaigns, but it could be a great idea for games based on scenarios like BFTB. Even if I would have bought it I certainly won't played all the scenarios, that's for sure. Give me a gimped version of BFTB without half of the scenarios and the editor for 50-55 € and there's a high chance I pull the trigger and get it.
Sadly I think it's a longshot. I don't think Matrix is willing to take a risk like that, since their pricing policy, like the other wargaming publishers, seems to be quite conservative. Also it's pretty clear to me that Matrix doesn't believe in expansions as a viable business model.

[beatoangelico]

After all I spent 105,83€ for EU3 plus the extensions (an excellent game), and I'm glad.
I regret more the 34,98€ spent for HoI3, which I never play because is completely unbalanced even after the 1.4 patch.

that's a ridiculus comparison to be honest. As I've already said their business models are polar opposites: Matrix prices are nearly set in stone; Paradox prices drop constantly and frequently (I bought EU3 complete at 30 € 1 year ago, now it's down to 15 € or less). And who bought attention to paradox in the last years should have know that at release you don't get good products (EU3 was better, but not worth buying IMHO). You can buy everything at release, spend a lot of € and play unbalaced/bugged/whatever games, or you can wait and spend a lot less. You don't have nearly as many options if you want to buy a Matrix game.

[murrcrag]

Perhaps this episode will serve as further proof (as if this tired world needed such) that any press is good press. This 'controversy' was discussed at Rock Paper Shotgun (pretty big as far as pc gaming sites go). I've never heard of matrix or bought a wargame, but after watching the tutorials on youtube, seeing the regard with which this forum (and wargamer's) holds bftb, I will buy this. I even read a post (either here or on wargamer) that this particular title is a good intro to serious wargaming. We'll see!

You might ask "Why should the regard of the strangers here and at wargamer matter to this 'murrcrag'?" This brings me to the other point I'd like to make. If these pricing threads are what pass for hot-headed around here then sign me up. You are all reasonable gentlemen & ladies. I'll see you on the battlefield.

[hgilmer3]

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Precisely why I stopped buying thier games after CK came out. I had EU1-3, and Ck bieng the last title I purchased. Shame really because some of the games really were great concepts. CK for example reminded me alot of the old online game Hundred Years War, with the dynastic aspect of the game. Ironically it was probably the only part of the game that really interested me.

Old? It's still going on! I liked it a lot back in the day and didn't get to play for too long.

[eMonticello]

Dave easily convinced me to purchase BFTB in 2002, after he introduced Airborne Assault: Red Devils over Arnhem. This is one of two games that I would buy sight unseen (the other would be MajorH's TacOps x.0).

To place the pricing in perspective... In 1984, Elite was introduced with the outrageous price of £15. Translate that into today's pounds (and dollars), that is roughly £60 (using average earnings) or $87.42 US. I have no doubt that I'll enjoy BFTB as much as I enjoyed the C64 version of Elite.

[hgilmer3]

I haven't posted too much on the price.  I have posted a couple of times, though.

Can anyone explain to me the reasoning behind raising the price on older games?  At the time you decided this is the break even price for your efforts and now you have decided to up the price?  Does this mean that the Bulge game will have its price raised in a few years?  Computer games usually go down in price over the years and it is really disheartening to me to see that Highway to the Reich is $50 just for digital download? I don't know if this price was raised, but it is a 7 year old game for $50?

[boatrigm]

COTA was raised from $49.99 to $59.99. I bought it a few weeks ago for that price. I figured BFTB would be the same....boy was I wrong.

[hgilmer3]

To the guy talking about exchange rates, unless I failed my accounting courses, the exchange rates are a little off on what you are explaining, if we compare a $20 increase to a $60 game and then compare exchange rates of the USD to the AUD from 2006 to present...

Unless I did my calcs wrong AND failed my accounting courses. [:)] and I know I didn't do one of those!