How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight?

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Never accept malice as the answer where incompetence is possible. Incompetence is ALWAYS much more common (and likely) than malice. Malice requires work, incompetence just needs an opportunity![:)]

Agree with you wholeheartedly, Steve. In situations like this, the first cut is always Occam's razor.

I am quite intrigued by Chicken o' the Sea's comments on the Chinese view of things. Factual interpretation is always internalized. And its analytical parameters are conceptually/culturally/linguistically based. Very much like the blind men describing the elephant. Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle wrote a sci-fi book about a race of aliens that evolved a class of beings whose sole purpose was to translate/mediate thoughts, attitudes, postures, etc .. between and among principals, thereby bridging conceptual gaps that lead to conflict through misunderstanding. Woof!

There are many words that resonate strongly in one language, that have absolutely no analog in another. Messages that initiate as 'soft' may well be received as 'adamant' because of simple linguistic/cultural misunderstanding at either the origination or reception end. I think Chicken o' the Sea's comments are fundamental to our understanding of not only the war, but also the environment of a portion of the world that we know only through sushi bars and Chinese take out.

Chicken o' the Sea, you be da man.

Well, if you look at the last century or so of social, political and cultural upheaval in China, it is easy to see how people can come to view the world as a series of conspiracies. I think the average Chinese person who lived through these periods felt like they had very little control over their lives.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea
Well, if you look at the last century or so of social, political and cultural upheaval in China, it is easy to see how people can come to view the world as a series of conspiracies. I think the average Chinese person who lived through these periods felt like they had very little control over their lives.

Which is the whole point, bro, and you got it wired pretty tight. Everything that transpires is viewed through the prism of experience and context of the observer. We use a working model (admittedly a minority view propounded by the wierdos in the sciences buildings) that looks at social inertia (population mass x desire as the velocity term, with d/dt being a resultant personality factor) as a primary determinant. The math is an awful lot like wavefront analysis of a tsunami.

I think like you. The 'average' person has much more impact than they are given credit for.

[sprior]

Why, he got America into the European War, of course.

But how did FDR KNOW the Germans would declare war against the USA? They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Why, he got America into the European War, of course.

But how did FDR KNOW the Germans would declare war against the USA? They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

True. Without Hitler's declaration, I have this mental picture of FDR staring at Marshall saying " I can't believe it. We're in the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time" [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea
Well, if you look at the last century or so of social, political and cultural upheaval in China, it is easy to see how people can come to view the world as a series of conspiracies. I think the average Chinese person who lived through these periods felt like they had very little control over their lives.

Which is the whole point, bro, and you got it wired pretty tight. Everything that transpires is viewed through the prism of experience and context of the observer. We use a working model (admittedly a minority view propounded by the wierdos in the sciences buildings) that looks at social inertia (population mass x desire as the velocity term, with d/dt being a resultant personality factor) as a primary determinant. The math is an awful lot like wavefront analysis of a tsunami.

I think like you. The 'average' person has much more impact than they are given credit for.

And a bunch of "average people" who get together ARE a tsunami! [:D]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Why, he got America into the European War, of course.

But how did FDR KNOW the Germans would declare war against the USA? They were under no obligation whatsoever to do so.

He was psychic! [X(]

[Lecivius]

I heard on some documentary on the Military channel theat Germany (and Italy)  declaring war came as a surprise to the Japanese leaders.
 
I have nothing at all to back this up, so take it for what it's worth.

[DuckofTindalos]

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "A fanatic is someone who will change neither his subject, his mind or his volume".

This thread should have stopped the moment its subject line was changed to "The Truth about Pearl Harbor". People who capitalize the word "Truth" are dangerous.

[Kwik E Mart]

i like this thread...

[Kwik E Mart]

...and so do i...

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "A fanatic is someone who will change neither his subject, his mind or his volume".

This thread should have stopped the moment its subject line was changed to "The Truth about Pearl Harbor". People who capitalize the word "Truth" are dangerous.

Depends on what the 'Truth' is they are espousing. There is absolute Truth, but it doesn't come from humans.
[:'(]

[Historiker]

He knows best!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Then you can do with it like I did with my copy, put it next to the Da vinchi code and the Von Danikan books! [:D]

Hey, the DV Code was bull, but don't you go hatin' on my Von Danikan!!! THOSE were PROVEN correct by the SGC and Jack O'Neill (with two ells.) It was on the moving picture box, and is thus correct and true.

[Insert Bronx Cheer here.]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Never accept malice as the answer where incompetence is possible. Incompetence is ALWAYS much more common (and likely) than malice. Malice requires work, incompetence just needs an opportunity![:)]

This was always my problem with Tom Clancy novels. The gear ALWAYS worked. The comms ALWAYS got through. NOBODY was ever hung-over or seeing the doc about the clap when the Rooskies came over the hill.

You could tell he never served himself.

[Torplexed]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58This was always my problem with Tom Clancy novels. The gear ALWAYS worked. The comms ALWAYS got through. NOBODY was ever hung-over or seeing the doc about the clap when the Rooskies came over the hill.

I always thought that if Clancy wrote up the Pacific War as a work of predictive fiction in the 1930s, those wretched Mk 14 magnetic exploders US subs were saddled with would have worked like a charm from day one. [:D] And B-17s would have sunk every ship in sight.

[Torplexed]

A coupla years ago astronomer Robert A. Braeunig wrote this blurb about people who believe the Apollo moon landings were faked. I think it applies equally well to the PH conspiracy crowd.

"Why do some people choose to believe in the moon-landing hoax? I wish I could provide a definitive answer to that question, however I suspect it is a combination of paranoia and, perhaps more importantly, feelings of inadequacy. The conspiracy believers create a delusional fantasy in which they are the heroes. Their ability to decipher the subtle clues and uncover the conspiracy is seen as a demonstration of their intellectual superiority. To the hoax believers the more complex and convoluted the theory, the smarter they feel for having figured it all out. To the rest of us the theory just doesn't make any sense."

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

...and so do i...

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!![:D]

[koontz]

....And we have never landed on the moon, the jews was behind that Hitler came to power, CIA was behind
9/11 etc etc....

or [X(]
[8|]

[LoBaron]

Where are the FACTS koontz? If you seek the TRUTH you will soon notice that:
There is no moon, the Viennese Acadamy of Art was behind that Hitler came to power, and the Texan oil lobby was behind 9/11.
 
I am sure Steve can provide the NAMES.

[koontz]

I was ironic [;)]