How to lose the war - PDH vs Cpt Flam

[Altaris]

I didn't mean to insult your opponent, BTW, though I can see how the comment got construed that way. I really wasn't referring to your opponent at all (whom I know nothing about). However, from what I've seen, a good, experienced Soviet player can easily pull back each turn, and with current rules, keep a wall 4-5 hexes deep of at least lvl 2 forts, so long as he's pulling back orderly. I'd venture to guess that your opponent did himself a dis-service if he counter-attacked a lot. While it's a good idea to hit panzers that stick out too far, the Soviets get far better bang for their buck in defense. I'd much rather have a well-rested Soviet division sitting in a lvl 2 fort, wooded hex than to counter-attack and burn him out, even in the event it was successful.

Looking back through this AAR, I definitely think your opponent was way behind on pulling his forces back. He had a lot of units in forward positions well after you had surrounded his flanks... that's destined for disaster. Just having the large majority of those forward units pulled back to slow down your pincer movement would've likely been enough to avert that encirclement.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

I don't know how many cavalry divisions the soviets have, but I have destroyed 23 of them. I think this will mean a bit fewer of the cavalry corps initially.

On turn 10 I had 41 on the map + 4 destroyed + 8 which will arrive as reinforcements until the end of 1941 = 53 divisions

[PeeDeeAitch]

(I can add in that I am hunting and routing as many cav divs as I can in the snow too)

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Altaris

However, from what I've seen, a good, experienced Soviet player can easily pull back each turn, and with current rules, keep a wall 4-5 hexes deep of at least lvl 2 forts, so long as he's pulling back orderly.

Not sure if it is as easy as you make out--have you played as Soviets?

[Altaris]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Altaris

However, from what I've seen, a good, experienced Soviet player can easily pull back each turn, and with current rules, keep a wall 4-5 hexes deep of at least lvl 2 forts, so long as he's pulling back orderly.

Not sure if it is as easy as you make out--have you played as Soviets?

Yes, been playing a HtH solo game playing both sides, just to see what's possible. It's not hard to go from 0 to 2 forts in 2 turns, even with only 1 division in the hex. 0 to 1 fort is very easy to do in 1 turn. 1 to 2 requires some RR construction support units to get committed to go up in 1 turn with only 1 division in the hex, but it's definitely doable. You can make a lot of progress on that 3rd turn towards lvl 3 too, especially near the cities where population really helps out a lot.

This does mean the Soviet has to have a plan of getting troops to the hexes where they want to build, and keeping them static to dig in. The best way to do this is to have the checkerboard defense in your expendable front areas those first few turns, build your first defensive line of 2-3 hexes deep, and keep pulling back. With a good build plan, the Germans are doomed to be stuck in carpet fort hell by August. You can't pull off the type of encirclements PDH has if you have a carpet of Soviets 5 hexes deep in lvl 2-3 forts. It's just not possible.

But I do think PDH has the right strategy as Germans to kick out east hard and fast, and keep the Soviets off balance. Still, a Soviet player that has a strong grasp of what to expect can counter those forward movements.

[TulliusDetritus]

Altaris, I only see a little problem with your argument [:)]

Imagine you want to create such a carpet in x front

- a front of 5 hexes would need 25 divisions
- a front of 10 hexes would need 50 divisions
- a front of 15 hexes would need 75 divisions

The thing is you cannot cover the whole front. It's mathematically impossible. And er, given that the Germans have a lot of mobility (4 panzer armies), they simply flank this carpet and keep advancing.

As I see it (and that's how I use the carpet thing) you have to choose what route you want to deny to the Germans. You carpet the place and that's all: you are "inviting" the Germans to choose another path. You can also use a carpet to defend a very important place (Moscow, Leningrad, etc.). A last stand that is.

That you can do it in x, y and z places: the 10%, 20% of the whole front? [;)] But you CANNOT do that along the whole front. You can't be strong everywhere. It's totally impossible (and I am thinking about the Blitzkrieg). The Germans will simply choose another route or target (and that per se might be a Soviet victory).

I'm a carpet psycho and I can tell you I am WEAK in many parts of the front [:)]

[PeeDeeAitch]

And as TD has said, you threaten what he wants, and voila!  You can smash what you might want.  And here is the kicker...a really hard drive in the first 5 (yes, 5 - I have said elsewhere how do to do this) means that the carpet is weaker still.
 
Finally, a rested Panzer Group can smash a carpet, and a second one can exploit...and the defender better pull out of all of those lovely entrenchments or else he will lose a lot of units.
 
Playing the Germans means being ruthless with your units, even the panzer, in my opinion.

[TulliusDetritus]

Sabre clearly said it: the carpet defense CAN be destroyed in one turn. It is not the most perfect system. If PeeDeeAitch says he can do it too, I believe him [8D] According to [again] Sabre, successive lines of defence are the way to go. And in fact that's what the Soviets did on 1941 to protect Moscow. Yes, they massed many armies in the center but they were defending in depth.

Which means I MUST learn that type of defence

[PeeDeeAitch]

End of the Snow

I attacked and advanced through the mud and snow - my squad strength shows this. There will be big hits coming, I know. Still, I have added many hexes of distance to my lines. Perhaps it is just maskirovka, be in certain places recon shows him to have weakness. This will not stop my plan of retreating the Oder and holding out til 1945.

[PeeDeeAitch]

OOB - Turn 24

Here is the OOB at the end of turn 24. Soviet reinforcements have brought their strength back up over the German numbers. Still, I feel pretty good about what has happened.

[PeeDeeAitch]

No screenshots (because I have given my last snow turn to Flam and await the blizzard start - I don't want him to see my defenses), but a couple of thoughts.
 
I pushed further here, not just Moscow which fell (yes, with successive lines of defense and a carpet of defenders) to two panzer groups and a railroaded in 18th Army) but south of Moscow and north.  I do not plan to hold all of this, or even the first 100-150 miles of this.  The gain is my buffer.
 
As I have said, just as the Soviets are not encumbered with their Leader who has a funny mustache, neither am I.  I don't need to hold fast, to lose virtually all my tanks in the first winter, or to get portions of my army surrounded.  I can fall back. I have never tried such a systematic defense before (and frankly if I pulled back just a few hexes in some fronts I could make it at least 4 weeks I believe, given how much I hurt the enemy), but I also promised to try some of the Rubber Band.
 
We have already seen one AAR that has a better off German Army after winter - and that one basically held fast after causing many casualties.  I am going a different route. I want to see Color's numbers in a real situation, and see if my army is indeed battleworthy come Spring 1942.

[PeeDeeAitch]

BLIZZARD!  OMG!  My first thought is to disband the entire army, this will save manpower.  Then, I figure I should just diband the panzers, because they do poorly in snow.  Finally, I actually look at the map and start my plan.  Thankfully my line of entrenchments at the Polish Border are still there!

[Josh]

Yeah *that* will take him off guard! Disband the entire army and send them all to Paris, for a little R&R at the Moulin Rouge. Your opponent will think at first that his recon is to blame, then when he will find your troops are in "la plus belle France" the Russian hordes will race him to get there first. Obviously, considering the poor state of Russian transports, this army will break down because of attrition. They will be sitting ducks for your totally refreshed troops straight from France. They will never know what hit them. You'll be in Vladivostok before summer. Promised.
 
[8D]

[CapAndGown]

I would like to see a front line trace at this point. Thanks.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Ask and you shall get.

Front before I fall back to Warsaw.

[paullus99]

You've got plenty of space to trade for time - you've hurt him pretty bad, so I think you'll get through this in good shape.

[Q-Ball]

3.4 mil is very low for the Soviets. You can surrender 12 hexes everywhere, and be back at the historical line. You'll have no issues.

[karonagames]

Hold fast! - make him fight for every hex!

[PeeDeeAitch]

I think what did it for me was the Stalino Dash. Without the files to look back, I believe that all the armaments factories were there. Having two fully rested and gassed up Panzer Groups that could have dashed for Moscow from the south (as two were approaching from the north) meant that Flam had to reinforce the center - it was a series of lines and entrenchments. When Stalino fell and the south was encircled the next turn, the balance really swung to my favor - lots of late destroyed troops, a hurt to the armaments, and the ability to advance in the south.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I can't hold fast initially - in some places I am spaced out too much and will be infiltrated to death. I do have a fall-back line though that is not too much in the rear. I do not really plan to pull back every turn...

-edit- I really did push as much as I could in mud and snow, so in some places if I just stopped I would be a wonderful dream for the soviet cavalry and tanks I can see.