Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

[mmarquo]

Turn 5 in a match against a WITE newbie but very experienced war gamer; he is retreating and giving up larger swaths of territory- this turn many of his checkerboard trash units would not yield to hasty attacks; in the old days a single MTZ division could rout them out and advance no problem. Now, it requires a stack of units for successful hasty attacks, especially if the defender is not in clear terrain.

I think the solution is to directly attach 3 support units to any German unit performing hasty attacks after turn 4 or 5.

Marquo

[Michael T]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but Attrition (including retreat attrition) is dependant on morale. So a Red army with a higher overall morale will suffer fewer losses to all forms of attrition. Over the course of many turns this will add up to a significant benefit to the Red Army over previous incarnations.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Turn 5 in a match against a WITE newbie but very experienced war gamer; he is retreating and giving up larger swaths of territory- this turn many of his checkerboard trash units would not yield to hasty attacks; in the old days a single MTZ division could rout them out and advance no problem. Now, it requires a stack of units for successful hasty attacks, especially if the defender is not in clear terrain.

I think the solution is to directly attach 3 support units to any German unit performing hasty attacks after turn 4 or 5.

Marquo

GHC simply does not have the AP to do stuff like that the first 6 turns. If GHC does not keep SHC on the run they are toast, we have seen enough AAR's to see that.

[mmarquo]

Since no one has played a campaign out to the bitter end with the new patch, hard to tell what is going to happen. For example, will the degraded Axis 1942 Spring offensive capability patch be too harsh now?

[timmyab]

I've just finished turn 6 of an Axis 41 campaign and I have to say that I'm quite enjoying the challenge posed by the tougher Soviet formations.It gives the early game a more historical feel.The Germans can't just barge their way through Soviet defenses if they choose to hold their ground.They either need to use stealth or concentrate for a set piece battle which makes for an interesting game.
I think if the Soviets could be forced to defend forward to the point that large pocket are likely and the blizzard was tamed the game would balance out nicely and start to conform more to history.
Maybe 45 morale is a quick fix but we'll be back to the IRUNURUN game that we've had since release.

[morvael]

As I said it's ok if 1941 is harder, but this must be offset by easier winter and '42.

[Rodimstev]

hi all,
sorry for my bad English but french are not expert in foreign language.

So,
the subject is the moral about the Red army in 41...patch after patch, we try to improve a well balanced game play just
for a only objective, try to have a chance to win if you are axis or soviet...

But this chance is not a function about a patch but about players.

it is important to understand that WITE is not played only by "expert" but a large community of players with différents level of expertise.

i think the good idea is to have level of players and for the "expert" level for example linked house rule to have a challenging game. It is possible because for a lot games, there are house rules.

why?

because in 41, the moral soviet army is more complicated as just a balanced 10 points as the moral axis army too.

i am not a expert in WITE but, i can say that i have a solid knowledge to the germano-soviet war and in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall. (see the military rapport about division commander, OKH, OKW rapports...)
In WITE, we can't observe it because it dépends the current military situation.

may be the true question is to know how many moral points a unit can gain by 1 tour if this unit is to 10 hex behind the front line in refit mode.

Rodimstev

[The Guru]

in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall.

I keep pleading for linking morale to (among other things) territorial gains/losses on a schedule basis, duly penalizing for failing to achieve the expected progression or for losing too much territory too quickly - which would put a realistic "political" brake to crazy withdrawals

[fbs]

ORIGINAL: The Guru

in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall.

I keep pleading for linking morale to (among other things) territorial gains/losses on a schedule basis, duly penalizing for failing to achieve the expected progression or for losing too much territory too quickly - which would put a realistic "political" brake to crazy withdrawals

Hey, that's a good suggestion!

Easiest way to do that is to have a small penalty to morale for each population that is lost (i.e., smaller for small cities, bigger for big cities). Should be easy to do, I reckon.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: fbs

ORIGINAL: The Guru

in the early august,it is certain that the moral in AGC and AGN fall.

I keep pleading for linking morale to (among other things) territorial gains/losses on a schedule basis, duly penalizing for failing to achieve the expected progression or for losing too much territory too quickly - which would put a realistic "political" brake to crazy withdrawals

Hey, that's a good suggestion!

Easiest way to do that is to have a small penalty to morale for each population that is lost (i.e., smaller for small cities, bigger for big cities). Should be easy to do, I reckon.

Easy, aye. I like the idea as well, at least that would make sense during 1941, the same for the Axis maybe starting in the post-Kursk time period or when the Soviets enter Eastern Prussia. The question is... is it hard-coded into the game system or not?

Klink, Oberst

[Shupov]

+1 Simply link NM to VP

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: Shupov

+1 Simply link NM to VP

+1

It would also prevent running for the hills for the SHC and rereat to Poland in 12/1941 for the GHC

[Shupov]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: Pelton
You can not and never will change the cold hard numbers I put up. They simply can't be refuted by anything other then fairytales and feelings.

...

To the topic, it seems the easy solution is to reduce Russian NM to below 50 (likely 45) in 1941, and/or reduce the size of morale gains when refitting 10+ hexes from the enemy, or make the requirement to be 20+ hexes away.

Alternatively, it could be incremental: 10+ hexes gives max 1 per turn gain, 20+ hexes gives 2 per turn, 30+ hexes 3 per turn, etc, although that might be not so easy for the programers to implement.

To the topic, it seems the easy solution is to reduce Russian NM to below 50 (likely 45) in 1941, and/or reduce the size of morale gains when refitting 10+ hexes from the enemy, or make the requirement to be 20+ hexes away.

Alternatively, it could be incremental: 10+ hexes gives max 1 per turn gain, 20+ hexes gives 2 per turn, 30+ hexes 3 per turn, etc, although that might be not so easy for the programers to implement.

I support reducing Russian morale increases with or without tying NM to VP (although I'd prefer tying them together). I don't support changing the 10+ hex rule. It seems like this is just being thrown into the mix without considering how it will affect both sides.

The Russians won't be much affected in 1941 - they will just keep new units further back. I keep them in the Volga and Southern Ural MD's until morale gains up to NM or 50. Currently this happens much faster than before. The Russian rail net has much higher capacity and runs right up to the front until the blizzard, so new units can be railed almost right into battle.

The Germans will be more affected in 1941 until their rail net catches up with the front. Refitting units will need to move further from the front without rail.

The German rail net will catch up with the front, but once they go on the defensive it will be more difficult to refit units. In bad weather even the Panzer units will have to use rail to move units 20+ hexes away. This will be a problem as the Germans have less available rail and it may be disrupted by partisan attacks.

Finally, I don't see realistically why units 200 miles from the front would improve morale much more than 100 miles. True they would me mostly out of tactical bomber range, but is that such a big factor?

[Joel Billings]

Somewhere back in this thread there was a post about a unit's morale going up from 97 to 99 without being involved in combat. If I didn't already say it, this is clearly a bug if it happened. The only way morale can go up like that would be if the unit won some battles (was it attacked by the Soviets?). I've seen no other reports of this kind of morale increase so if it's happening, I bet it's incredibly rare. If you see something like this happen we'd love to get a before and after save.

I spoke with Ketza at Historicon and he was telling me that he's found increasing German Morale a little (105% in his latest case) is a great balancing tool for 2 player games. It seems to work better than adjusting Soviet morale. This leads me to think that for players that don't care what side they're going to play, they could use German morale in some kind of bidding way to determine which player was going to play German (the person willing to play with the lower German morale setting would get the German side).

Sometime in the next few weeks we'll take a serious look at possibly making a change or two and we'll review the feedback in this thread. We'll be limited to morale changes as we're not opening up the rest of the game. Bigger changes will have to wait until WitE 2.0 down the road. Thanks for the feedback.

[SigUp]

About this 97 to 99 I found the reason. I didn't notice that when I went to check the settings the prior turn I accidently changed German morale (up). So this explains it.

[Michael T]

I agree with Joel and Ketza. Adjusting down Soviet morale from 100 to 95 won't make much difference as Soviet morale is effectively 50. It seems unless there is an official patch the best thing to is up Axis morale to around 105.

If there is a patch, I hope it actually makes Soviet NM work properly, as ATM its always at least 50.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I agree with Joel and Ketza. Adjusting down Soviet morale from 100 to 95 won't make much difference as Soviet morale is effectively 50. It seems unless there is an official patch the best thing to is up Axis morale to around 105.

If there is a patch, I hope it actually makes Soviet NM work properly, as ATM its always at least 50.

Yes as stated lowing SHC is pointless as all axis allies and Russians NM is 50.

IF IF 2by3 would remove the if 10 hexes from the front an morale is under 50 rule. Its about as historical as 1v1=2v1.

Who comes up with some of these simply Middle Earth rules?

Why have NM if you got some loop hole any moron can drive a truck through and make the rest of the rule book on morale pointless?

[Michael T]

Adjusting Axis morale settings up is not the answer. See my post in the other thread.

I am despondent [:(]

[Walloc]

Joel,

I think its clear from Peltons tests in the other thread and annecdotal evidence that moral gains from combat/wins seems to go up faster post 1.07.06 then pre. I susepct its to any kinda moral not only below the NM but well im not sure.
I could very well be wrong but as i read the readme file on the fix in 1.07.06 it doesnt seem to suggest there should be any change to that part of moral gains. Only for the regain below NM. Peltons tests shows the faster increase also happens at way above NM levels.
If im correct is the moral gain from combat being higher post 1.07.06. intended or a bug created in the bug fixing?

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Joel,

I think its clear from Peltons tests in the other thread and annecdotal evidence that moral gains from combat/wins seems to go up faster post 1.07.06 then pre. I susepct its to any kinda moral not only below the NM but well im not sure.
I could very well be wrong but as i read the readme file on the fix in 1.07.06 it doesnt seem to suggest there should be any change to that part of moral gains. Only for the regain below NM. Peltons tests shows the faster increase also happens at way above NM levels.
If im correct is the moral gain from combat being higher post 1.07.06. intended or a bug created in the bug fixing?

Kind regards,

Rasmus

The chances to gain morale at lower levels was changed I do not think anything else has changed, but I could be wrong.

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