Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)

[mmarquo]

Kamil,

I have attempted to choose my words very carefully, and once again no one has criticized MkTours for his excellent gameplay, rather what the game engine allows a player to do with logistics.

We all play for different reasons, and fantasy advances based on poor logistical modeling is not for me. I enjoy historical simulations which allow one to play with approximate modeling of conditions.

I fully agree that the game was far from over; but saw no point in continuing to counterattack, displace HQs, and encircle his lead units all to absolutely no avail. And if the things I managed to do upset his his timetable, than I dread to imagine where he would have been if I had not done those things.

Marquo [:)]

[mktours]

Thank you, Dangun
The story from T9-T14 isn’t as interesting as the LUKI story.
Doing AAR is very time consuming, especially I am not a native English speaker, which means I have to spend more time and energy in doing it. So I am not going to post the reports of those turns. There was a big break through which sealed off the vast north; a big encirclement in the south; and attacking at Moscow. All the big break through have 2-3 turns to build up power before the assault, just like the final one, so they would do the decisive break through.
I am a new player to this game as well, though an experience war game player and a good chess player. My suggestion is that you read the war room forum selectively; it might be the best way to improve your skills in this game. I believe you could improve very quickly. [:)]
tt.asp?forumid=911

ORIGINAL: Dangun

ORIGINAL: mktours
Since the LUKI story has ended, and I only got one comment from DV, I have decided to jump to the last turn.

Pity. I was really enjoying this AAR.
Being a noob, I don't (didn't) really know enough to comment.

[mktours]

Thank you, Kamil
I deeply appreciate what you have commented. It is great character that you voice the concern about the unjustified criticism. I believe good players like you, MT, Saper could have good judgment and insight in this game.

ORIGINAL: Kamil

I deeply dissapointed by scale of criticism of Mktours gameplay. It is not his fault, that authours of WitE massively failed in logistical aspect of the game. Developments demonstrated in his AAR are not historical at all, but this wargame is far from being historical.

Initiall rampage that Wehrmacht can wreck blurs the picture once again - game is biased in Soviet favour.


I am far from liking the fact such fantasy advace is possible - it massivly limits enjoyment that can be taken from initial turns of the game, but lets be clear it has nothing to do with Mktours. So why all this fuss?


It is like in my game vs MT, it is good play vs bad one.

Due to poor logistical model my stupidity during first turn forced me loose 1/3 of industry in order to avoid loosing game in '41.
In this case Marquo could and should have done better and to be honest game was far, far from being decided.


And like 2ndACR said - crazy logistics is nothing new and it is really easy way to come to wrong conclusions about reasons of current situation in the game.

[Flaviusx]

Kamil, I make no apologies, the criticism is absolutely merited given Mktour's stance that not only does the game allow this, but that it's justifiable. (Because hey, that's what Guderian would do! Except that he didn't and couldn't.) It's the last part that floors me. And he flatly refuses to respond to any criticism on the substantive level. There is probably a language barrier issue here no doubt, but he seems outraged that some of us simply are not impressed by the way the game is being abused and misused. I'm not going to pat his back for this; he's got that covered on his own.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: mktours

Thank you, Kamil
I deeply appreciate what you have commented. It is great character that you voice the concern about the unjustified criticism. I believe good players like you, MT, Saper could have good judgment and insight in this game.

Well, I don't think the criticism concerning the logistics of this game is unjustified. The logistics of this game are way over the top. Some of the things (like airsupply on such a massive scale) that can be done in this game, are perhaps not even possible today. Nobody has questioned your ability or your character. Numerous people (me included) have praised you for your optimization of the engine. Yet, we shake our head at your achievements, because they should not be possible. You mentioned you are a good chess player. And this really shows. But this game has a clearcut historical background. So what we think is, if the engine can't be corrected, then it would provide for a better game, if people restrain themselves from optimizing a broken system to the top. MT, who you mentioned above, despite his use of airsupply, plays with a good number of house rules preventing some of the very ahistorical things of this game.

[mktours]

Mark,
I would like to see you making a list of your "counterattack, displace HQs, and encircle his lead units", I agree that all of these have happened in our game, but at what level? My suggestion is that you publish the list of your success and let the data speak for themselves, otherwise people might be thinking I shall be busy defending Berlin miserablly, [:)]
The panzer spearhead is very easy to get temporarily isolated for one turn as they shall be far advance ahead of the major troops; otherwise it is not a big breakthrough at all. If a GHC never has such an experience, I doubt he is a good player. No a good GHC would ever shy away from a deep thrust simply because the possibility to get the spearhead isolated for one turn. Ask MT, I believe it shall be common experience for him to get spearhead being temporarily cut off as well. If I got air-drop units, I would love to air drop them, they are 100% to be isolated, but who cares?

ORIGINAL: Marquo

I fully agree that the game was far from over; but saw no point in continuing to counterattack, displace HQs, and encircle his lead units all to absolutely no avail. And if the things I managed to do upset his his timetable, than I dread to imagine where he would have been if I had not done those things.

Marquo [:)]

[mktours]

SigUp
as I said, I never thought your have given negative comments, there are simply different opinions between us, I always discuss with you in a friendly way, there are other people who are commenting in a unfriendly way and do you see I counter them? I didn't.
there are several threads regarding my playing, not just this thread, you could go to have a look and you would see some of the comments are very assaulting, and I just didn't fight back. it didn't deserve my time.
Again, I have no ill feeling about your comments, I simply have different opinions with you, and that is ok, isn't it? thanks for your comments.[:)]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: mktours

Thank you, Kamil
I deeply appreciate what you have commented. It is great character that you voice the concern about the unjustified criticism. I believe good players like you, MT, Saper could have good judgment and insight in this game.

Well, I don't think the criticism concerning the logistics of this game is unjustified. The logistics of this game are way over the top. Some of the things (like airsupply on such a massive scale) that can be done in this game, are perhaps not even possible today. Nobody has questioned your ability or your character. Numerous people (me included) have praised you for your optimization of the engine. Yet, we shake our head at your achievements, because they should not be possible. You mentioned you are a good chess player. And this really shows. But this game has a clearcut historical background. So what we think is, if the engine can't be corrected, then it would provide for a better game, if people restrain themselves from optimizing a broken system to the top. MT, who you mentioned above, despite his use of airsupply, plays with a good number of house rules preventing some of the very ahistorical things of this game.

[SigUp]

This kind of isolation is not the common experience. I have gone through lots of AARs, but this kind of isolation (and getting away with it) is a first. Not to mention the time you had your motorized division isolated at Vyzhny Volochek, with 5 hexes between it and the next German units, which were also isolated. I haven't seen a game with a German player getting his spearheads cut off so many times, and getting away with it. Yes, people normally take the risk of getting spearheads cut off if the reward is great. But they do try to guard their flanks. On the other hand, you don't seem to give a damn about getting units cut off.



For example in this screen you just send them into Stalino with no flank protection for like 200km. These screens also highlight the logistics issue very well. In that first screen your units are cut off. Even if they aren't, they would have to trace supply over hundreds of kilometres, over forests, rivers and swamps. So in effect they shouldn't get any. Yet, due to airsupply, you have a good number of units with more than 25 MPs. That leading motorized division even has 42(!).

EDIT:

ORIGINAL: mktours
there are several threads regarding my playing, not just this thread, you could go to have a look and you would see some of the comments are very assaulting, and I just didn't fight back. it didn't deserve my time.

There is only one thread, the one Marquo created. And it isn't about your play. It is using your game to highlight the broken logistics of this game, urging the developers and the community to think about a solution.

[mktours]

SigUp
I believe I have said in the AAR that it is a huge set back that I got the entire group of panzers being cut off, and the reports of the next turn did show many units have very low MP, it is certainly huge set back to my plan, otherwise I would have the whole panzer group to do a massive assault the next turn. I certainly make many mistakes in this game, not just this one, and I didn't deny them, I am very new to this game.
Nobody like his troops to be cut off,[:)]
In your second sceenshot, I am expecting the spearhead being cut off the next turn, but given they capture 20 armaments and 11 heavy industry this turn, don't you think the sacrifice worthwhile? You could see that in the next several turns they are inactive.

ORIGINAL: SigUp



This kind of isolation is not the common experience. I have gone through lots of AARs, but this kind of isolation (and getting away with it) is a first. Not to mention the time you had your motorized division isolated at Vyzhny Volochek, with 5 hexes between it and the next German units, which were also isolated. I haven't seen a game with a German player getting his spearheads cut off so many times, and getting away with it. Yes, people normally take the risk of getting spearheads cut off if the reward is great. But they do try to guard their flanks. On the other hand, you don't seem to give a damn about getting units cut off.



For example in this screen you just send them into Stalino with no flank protection for like 200km. These screens also highlight the logistics issue very well. In that first screen your units are cut off. Even if they aren't, they would have to trace supply over hundreds of kilometres, over forests, rivers and swamps. So in effect they shouldn't get any. Yet, due to airsupply, you have a good number of units with more than 25 MPs. That leading motorized division even has 42(!).

[Bozo_the_Clown]

The second screenshot I don't get at all. Shouldn't Marquo have been able to build a wall of units between the spearhead and the main force? The gap between them is huge and he has tons of units nearby.

Also, I would like to know if Marquo ever actually attacked the spearheads. I see a lot of green triangles for moral but I would assume that supplies (not fuel) are very low and fatigue is very high. In my experience these units are easy targets for counter attacks. The actual displayed CV values mean nothing.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: mktours

SigUp
I believe I have said in the AAR that it is a huge set back that I got the entire group of panzers being cut off, and the reports of the next turn did show many units have very low MP, it is certainly huge set back to my plan, otherwise I would have the whole panzer group to do a massive assault the next turn. I certainly make many mistakes in this game, not just this one, and I didn't deny them, I am very new to this game.

You didn't call it a huge setback, but this is of little importance. Despite that you still don't care about any semblance of flank protection, so you really just invite the Soviet player to cut them off. Why? Because you know that with airsupply you can keep them in reasonable shape, so no need to worry. Anyway, it is not really a setback if you are in Vyzhny Vylochek on turn 5, keep chugging on despite being way ahead of your supply lines in terrible terrain. That you think like this convinces me that our discussion can be concluded at this stage. You treat this game as Chess in the East and not War in the East, which is your perfect right. Just don't expect others to be happy seeing the engine get abused. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

The second screenshot I don't get at all. Shouldn't Marquo have been able to build a wall of units between the spearhead and the main force? The gap between them is huge and he has tons of units nearby.

Also, I would like to know if Marquo ever actually attacked the spearheads. I see a lot of green triangles for moral but I would assume that supplies (not fuel) are very low and fatigue is very high. In my experience these units are easy targets for counter attacks. The actual displayed CV values mean nothing.

I did not have enough units to create a wall anywhere without the risk of another envelopment. And yes those units were repeatedly cutoff, and yes, I did counterattack spearheads successfully, and there was even one turn where I attacked HQs stacked with units and managed to displace 3 in one turn, but none of it mattered. [:)]

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Wow, that's amazing. Hard to believe that this didn't matter. [X(]

[mmarquo]

Yes, and my point is what would have happened otherwise; he would have cleared the map by winter [:D]

[Callistrid]

It looks ugly...
Still the soviet 41 winter, still the supply/ air drop system need to be rethinking...

[2ndACR]

Airhead supply, not air lifting fuel to Panzers...........that has been around from release. That was what I was referring to. You just ran into someone who mastered the way to run it to the max effect.

The shock you felt here was the same as when folks started daisy chaining HQ's for buildup's. Same as when folks saw the Lvov for the first time. I remember when we all were in the war room working up 1st turn strategies and such for the German's. Lvov was the end all.

[mktours]

Mark,
Since you are feeling what you have done "none of it matter", why not pose them to the tech forum, the developer are welcoming this kind of feedback, we know every action in the game should have its effect, otherwise the game would break down, so that is the perfect feedback which the developer would be eager to receive, please pose your detail reports and files to the tech forum and the developer would certainly attend to you. Directly contact the official support is also a good idea, they are welcoming this feed back.

I still would like to see the list of your success, for example, how many HQ you have managed to displace throughout our game? every player feel painful whenever his HQ being displaced, I certainly feel the same way, but we have done 15 turns, I remember that it should not be more than 10 times that you displaced my HQs, among them, only 4 Pz corp HQ for once. In T3, you displaced 1 infantry HQ, 1pz group HQ and 1 air HQ, 1 air base. In the turn you mentioned that you displaced 3 pz HQ, you also displaced a pz HQ on the other front, but that HQ is very close to the rail head, so it mattered little. That was big set back on my side of course, you knew it and you should be celebrating at the time. Apart from these 2 events, I didn't remember any of my HQ being displaced. Please feel free to publish a complete list to correct me if I am wrong.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

The second screenshot I don't get at all. Shouldn't Marquo have been able to build a wall of units between the spearhead and the main force? The gap between them is huge and he has tons of units nearby.

Also, I would like to know if Marquo ever actually attacked the spearheads. I see a lot of green triangles for moral but I would assume that supplies (not fuel) are very low and fatigue is very high. In my experience these units are easy targets for counter attacks. The actual displayed CV values mean nothing.

I did not have enough units to create a wall anywhere without the risk of another envelopment. And yes those units were repeatedly cutoff, and yes, I did counterattack spearheads successfully, and there was even one turn where I attacked HQs stacked with units and managed to displace 3 in one turn, but none of it mattered. [:)]

[mktours]

SigUp
Good luck in your future endeavors too, Thank you.

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: mktours

SigUp
I believe I have said in the AAR that it is a huge set back that I got the entire group of panzers being cut off, and the reports of the next turn did show many units have very low MP, it is certainly huge set back to my plan, otherwise I would have the whole panzer group to do a massive assault the next turn. I certainly make many mistakes in this game, not just this one, and I didn't deny them, I am very new to this game.

You didn't call it a huge setback, but this is of little importance. Despite that you still don't care about any semblance of flank protection, so you really just invite the Soviet player to cut them off. Why? Because you know that with airsupply you can keep them in reasonable shape, so no need to worry. Anyway, it is not really a setback if you are in Vyzhny Vylochek on turn 5, keep chugging on despite being way ahead of your supply lines in terrible terrain. That you think like this convinces me that our discussion can be concluded at this stage. You treat this game as Chess in the East and not War in the East, which is your perfect right. Just don't expect others to be happy seeing the engine get abused. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[mktours]

Mark,
If you really think so, you certainly got the right to phone the developer and tell them how wrong they have done, big discover to claim, isn't it? They would be very surprise and would thank you for informing them.[;)]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Yes, and my point is what would have happened otherwise; he would have cleared the map by winter [:D]

[Dangun]

time consuming, especially I am not a native English speaker, which means I have to spend more time and energy in doing it. So I am not going to post the reports of those turns.

Understood.

What I found most interesting in this AAR was how many of mktours' units seemed to be 'taking a rest'.

A lot of units seem to be kept more than 2 hexes back from the front line for the purpose of having them accumulate MP (refuel). This is interesting because board wargames never give you an incentive to do this. It seems that for the GHC, a major attack every 2/3 turns is much better than constantly pushing at the Soviet front lines. In the few games I've played against human opponents their panzers have spent most of the time at 16-24 MP.

I am not sure what exactly about logistics and combat system makes this effective.