Research Reloaded - [DWU][WIP][beta soon] New huge research tree, new everything

[lurchi]

True words have been spoken.[:)]

[lurchi]

Balancing aside I'm done with the weapon research. Yeah! [:D]

There are now 740 research projects meaning that I doubled the vanilla number. [8D]

Here's another teaser:

[lurchi]

I forgot to mention there are now 45 more components I need to add once the base game is patched.

[Rhikore]

Good Stuff, Lurchi. [:)]

Did you get my message?

[lurchi]

Thanks. [:)]

Yup, I got it, my answer is one page back.

[spiralaxis]

Any plans for new wonders or facilities?

I've often felt Wonders should require a specific, separate research project instead of how it currently works.

Facility ideas:
- Global surveillance network (-% corruption, -% happiness))
- Fertility centres (+% pop growth)
- Conscription centre (+% troops, --% happiness)

Not sure how the AI would handle these though.

[lurchi]

One new facility is already done, another underway, and of course there are plans for more. The AI seems to build them just fine.

Global surveillance network? Is the NSA still around in the future? [:D]

[lurchi]

BTW, there is a mod providing more wonders, did you check that out? I considered adding those, but they still need to be balanced. I definitely keep an eye on that one, but right now I confine myself to adding new facilities open for everyone to prevent unbalancing the playfield.

[Cmiller]

I like that you've added many research projects, but my only concern is how long it would take to complete a research branch. I'm one of those players that likes to play on smaller maps to have shorter games, and with vanilla tech tree I usually don't see the end of tech tree before victory, which is fine with me. But with these insane amounts of research projects i'd be lucky just to get to midgame tech. So I just want to ask what's this going to mean for those who want shorter games. I liked Locarnus's idea with balancing the tech, but it seems that you are actually extending it. That's fine, but now I sure wish there'd be the option of having a tech tree that is simply balanced with minimal additional tech projects.

And then I hear rumors that there's a mega-mod in the works which apparently will include your mod. That's also fine, but I hope if this mega mod is ever release there'd at least be the option to remove portions of the mod that the user may not want. For example, what the martian guy did with his graphics mod. He had lots of cool features, but gave people the choice of choosing what features they wanted. I'm not trying to bash on your mod, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit my playstyle, and it would be a shame to have a cool megamod come out, and then I would find it undesirable simply because I couldn't remove one feature (or two).

So I just have two requests of the modding community:

1.) Can we have another tech tree mod, but one that only balances the vanilla and adds minimal additional tech projects.
2.) If you're making a mega-mod, at least give individuals the option to remove certain features that they may not find desirable.

Hope my post sounds clear, ask me any questions if it doesn't. And good job on your mod lurchi, I'm sure many people here will like it. I'll at least give it a try on release. And who knows, maybe I'll end up liking after all. Can't knock something until your try it, right? [:)].

Cmiller

[Kizucha]

I never tried it but maybe lower the research costs? I think it will work, so you need less time.[:)]

Its only what i think lurchi would do, that he make after the "release" an other version, because i think more will be happy with more research projects. So maybe if lurchi will do the extra work, it will give an lite version after the biggest work.[:)]

In mind i say what can be possible and its not 100%, i dont can look in lurchis ideas.[:D]

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

I like that you've added many research projects, but my only concern is how long it would take to complete a research branch. I'm one of those players that likes to play on smaller maps to have shorter games, and with vanilla tech tree I usually don't see the end of tech tree before victory, which is fine with me. But with these insane amounts of research projects i'd be lucky just to get to midgame tech. So I just want to ask what's this going to mean for those who want shorter games. I liked Locarnus's idea with balancing the tech, but it seems that you are actually extending it. That's fine, but now I sure wish there'd be the option of having a tech tree that is simply balanced with minimal additional tech projects.

And then I hear rumors that there's a mega-mod in the works which apparently will include your mod. That's also fine, but I hope if this mega mod is ever release there'd at least be the option to remove portions of the mod that the user may not want. For example, what the martian guy did with his graphics mod. He had lots of cool features, but gave people the choice of choosing what features they wanted. I'm not trying to bash on your mod, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit my playstyle, and it would be a shame to have a cool megamod come out, and then I would find it undesirable simply because I couldn't remove one feature (or two).

So I just have two requests of the modding community:

1.) Can we have another tech tree mod, but one that only balances the vanilla and adds minimal additional tech projects.
2.) If you're making a mega-mod, at least give individuals the option to remove certain features that they may not find desirable.

Hope my post sounds clear, ask me any questions if it doesn't. And good job on your mod lurchi, I'm sure many people here will like it. I'll at least give it a try on release. And who knows, maybe I'll end up liking after all. Can't knock something until your try it, right? [:)].

Cmiller

With lurchi's mod he may reduce the research effort required for each technology, but another solution would be to change the research setting one notch e.g. I play on Expensive Research so would instead use Normal.

What sort of balancing did you have in mind Cmiller? In the AI Improvement Mod, I've added minimal additional technology projects but considered weapons balancing, colonisation balancing and the next release will include hyperdrive balancing. There are some other minor changes as well e.g. to balance the research required by Torpedo Bombers and Missile Bombers. I'm happy to consider other balancing that helps the AI as well.

There is no user friendly "tick box" capability that we could provide, and how easy it is depends on the feature. Two examples:

1. Let's say you didn't like how I've balanced hyperdrives. To change that you would need to go into research.txt and components.txt and change it. Pretty easy. But the Research Build Orders for the races that focus on speed/agility may no longer be balanced as a result of that change.

2. Let's say you didn't like how I've balanced colonisation and watched that back to default. You can again change research.txt and components.txt. A more involved change, but more importantly every Research Build Order in races.txt is now invalid (because the research project numbers change) and the Mod would be broken. After customising 62 research build orders, I'm sure you could imagine how much work it work be to customise each permutation. The only way to keep my sanity given this is a voluntary endeavour in my own time, is to release a package.

[Blackstork]

I also could tell tho your anticipation of big megamod is admirable i must say that there should be honor to lurchi , as well to any other modder who invests his time and release hi quality and depth content, and that honor also includes certiain trust... cmon, this is not released yet, and for sure all we aim to create amazing, balanced, epic game... and obcourse, as been said, you can adjust research speeds in the game...... anyways, this is too early to say, let to lurchi release, better support him, and once it done i am sure it will be tweaked / made into best epic form possible...

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

I like that you've added many research projects, but my only concern is how long it would take to complete a research branch. I'm one of those players that likes to play on smaller maps to have shorter games, and with vanilla tech tree I usually don't see the end of tech tree before victory, which is fine with me. But with these insane amounts of research projects i'd be lucky just to get to midgame tech. So I just want to ask what's this going to mean for those who want shorter games.

Not much, researching a path will only take slightly longer. The research trees I provide are wider, not longer. There will be multiple ways to do things, just choose one path you like.

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

I liked Locarnus's idea with balancing the tech, but it seems that you are actually extending it. That's fine, but now I sure wish there'd be the option of having a tech tree that is simply balanced with minimal additional tech projects.

And then I hear rumors that there's a mega-mod in the works which apparently will include your mod. That's also fine, but I hope if this mega mod is ever release there'd at least be the option to remove portions of the mod that the user may not want. For example, what the martian guy did with his graphics mod. He had lots of cool features, but gave people the choice of choosing what features they wanted. I'm not trying to bash on your mod, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit my playstyle, and it would be a shame to have a cool megamod come out, and then I would find it undesirable simply because I couldn't remove one feature (or two).

This mod will be balanced, Icemania will see to that. Also I hope you do understand that you're neither supposed nor forced to research everything. [;)]

You pick a path and go with that. Most empires will probably pick different ones. Expect to see a way wider diversity when you meet AI empires.

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

So I just have two requests of the modding community:

1.) Can we have another tech tree mod, but one that only balances the vanilla and adds minimal additional tech projects.
2.) If you're making a mega-mod, at least give individuals the option to remove certain features that they may not find desirable.

Hope my post sounds clear, ask me any questions if it doesn't. And good job on your mod lurchi, I'm sure many people here will like it. I'll at least give it a try on release. And who knows, maybe I'll end up liking after all. Can't knock something until your try it, right? [:)].

Icemania's weapon balance mod aside I doubt there'll be another pure rebalance mod since there's basically no gain in that. Regarding the tech it'll be very unlikely you can remove stuff without breaking the mod. The reason is that each included race - and there will be a lot - will follow a different research approach. I also don't see the slightest reason why you would want to remove projects. Just don't use features you don't want to use. Do you know many people ripping out seats from their cars because they don't need them all? [;)]

[lurchi]

Research projects can be restricted to certain races. That's good. What do you think about additionally being able to restrict research projects to certain governments? Like complete population control available for military dictatorships and way of darkness?

[Blackstork]

i think its must have, very cool feature, man, some governments could define tech paths so much
from rce-specific goverements (please check Boyond ideas / blog for next release), to certain mentality goverments. But i hightly suggest to do it together if we aim to merge things / unite races / art /characters/ research /ai / wepons

[lurchi]

You sure seem to like the idea. [:)]
I place it on my wishlist.

[Cmiller]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
What sort of balancing did you have in mind Cmiller?

Having you considered balancing the different government types. A few suggestions would be to further increase their biases toward one another to increase the likely hood of major alliances/major wars (I find they have little impact sometimes). And then there are governments that have zero foes such as Technocracy and Feudalism. And then you have governments like Monarchy which zero disadvantages. Then you have governments which are utter crap like corporate nationalism. I think if anything, the governments could use a bit of tweaking. That's the only suggestion I have as of now. Thanks Icemania.

Btw, thanks for all the replies. I guess my requests are out of the question which is fine. If it really comes down to it, I wouldn't mind adjusting my playstyle if means adding a really cool mod to my collection [:)]

Cmiller

[Cmiller]

ORIGINAL: lurchi

Research projects can be restricted to certain races. That's good. What do you think about additionally being able to restrict research projects to certain governments? Like complete population control available for military dictatorships and way of darkness?

I didn't notice this before I posted my suggestion for governments, yeah this is an awesome idea.

[lurchi]

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

Having you considered balancing the different government types. A few suggestions would be to further increase their biases toward one another to increase the likely hood of major alliances/major wars (I find they have little impact sometimes). And then there are governments that have zero foes such as Technocracy and Feudalism. And then you have governments like Monarchy which zero disadvantages. Then you have governments which are utter crap like corporate nationalism. I think if anything, the governments could use a bit of tweaking. That's the only suggestion I have as of now. Thanks Icemania.

Icemania already tinkered with the bias settings, I guess we can expect more in the final edition. There also will be more government types in the mod.

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

Btw, thanks for all the replies. I guess my requests are out of the question which is fine. If it really comes down to it, I wouldn't mind adjusting my playstyle if means adding a really cool mod to my collection [:)]

Cmiller

No need to change anything, you just have a bigger supply of components to choose from. If you want to keep researching what you always used that's perfectly fine. [;)]

[Cmiller]

That's awesome, Icemania's already doing that. And more governments is definitely welcomed as well [:)]. Because your working on the research side of things, may I suggest allowing certain governments to be researched. Or we could have something like with Civilization where everyone starts with a very low class government, and to get better ones you need to research them and then upgrade. It changes the dynamics of the game, and I feel starts everyone at the same level like it should be. For example, in a pre-warp game everyone would have the same low class government(like you do in the stone age in civilization), and during the pre-era they would start to research their desired government and then upgrade. We can make sure to add a good variety at the start as to still keep government biases and stuff. And then what could happen is there could be "upgrades" to these goverments types like you have upgrades to ship components and whatnot. And then somewhere in the end game you'd have the super governments like Way of Ancients and Way of Darkness (think Communism and Democracy in Civilization series). Oh, and if the player chooses not to start in pre-warp, then he would already have some starting governments available to choose and can just choose his desired government at game start (still of course having the ability to research upgraded governments). Let me know what you think of my idea.

Cmiller