Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[Arnir]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Or perhaps the other 4993 don't want to get into what is considered to be a fruitless debate. Some of us might be waiting until it appears that the debate might have a purpose.

Of course, if the "silent majority" never speaks up then they will become the "irrelevant majority." I would imagine that if Matrix/2by3 publicly announces their willingness to consider changing the issue, more players will become involved.

That's fair enough. But if you want a say so in a feature, speak up. If you don't until AFTER a decision gets made, you akin to the person who whines about their government representatives but never votes...

Very true.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The other 4993 are IRRELEVENT because they don't care one way or the other.

You are beyond belief! So every person who simply how don't like jumping into a flame post is irrelevent? I'm sure they all have the same high opinion of you [8|]

This is now an 8 page thread with a lot of back and forth discussion. It is long enough and has been around long enough that anyone interested in the issue has had a good chance of speaking up on what they want. If they haven't then it can reasonably be assumed that they really don't care that much about it one or another.

[tsimmonds]

You can break down this entire thread in one point: "I hate Nates, I don't want to have to wait for Oscars to upgrade!"

This still is not quite it. It is more "Thank God I finally got all those crappy Nates upgraded to Oscar IIs. But wait; now the Oscar IIs are obsolete; I've got factories that could be cranking out Franks, too bad I can't upgrade any of my Oscars."

They fielded what they could based on what they had. We have a grossly simplified model and people are neglecting the reality completely and saying lets just add this little interface toggle to let me do this because they are hung up on the interface mechanics of the game which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

I have to say, Frag, that this has convinced me that your arguement is correct.

Of course, if the "silent majority" never speaks up then they will become the "irrelevant majority." I would imagine that if Matrix/2by3 publicly announces their willingness to consider changing the issue, more players will become involved.

I consider myself to be the only true member of the "irrelevant majority"; the rest of you may apply for honorary status.[;)]

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
The problem is most of the folks in this thread read a line in the editor and scream, but have yet to actually play the game far enough to even know that what they are talking about is completely pointless. [;)]

So there I am in a PBEM game late 44. I could have 1000 Franks produced - if there were anywhere to put them. So now I go, "WTF? I can't upgrade Oscars?" and post in the forum. The response I get: "Well, you can restart your game..." DO you have any idea how *idiotic* it is to suggest that we should spend 1000's of hours playing a game, THEN restart after it becomes an issue?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say on one hand - Japan didn't have the resources so they shouldn't and then also say that if they do, they can't anyway. If as you say, you can't produce them when the time comes, then it does not hurt to have the upgrade capability there. If you add the capability to upgrade and you manage to produce more advanced aircraft, not having the upgrade path *does* hurt the game.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

You can break down this entire thread in one point: "I hate Nates, I don't want to have to wait for Oscars to upgrade!"

This still is not quite it. It is more "Thank God I finally got all those crappy Nates upgraded to Oscar IIs. But wait; now the Oscar IIs are obsolete; I've got factories that could be cranking out Franks, too bad I can't upgrade any of my Oscars."

They fielded what they could based on what they had. We have a grossly simplified model and people are neglecting the reality completely and saying lets just add this little interface toggle to let me do this because they are hung up on the interface mechanics of the game which has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

I have to say, Frag, that this has convinced me that your arguement is correct.

Of course, if the "silent majority" never speaks up then they will become the "irrelevant majority." I would imagine that if Matrix/2by3 publicly announces their willingness to consider changing the issue, more players will become involved.

I consider myself to be the only true member of the "irrelevant majority"; the rest of you may apply for honorary status.[;)]

I honestly don't care which way they go with this, just so they go one way or the other and stop sitting on the perverbial design fence....

[Mr.Frag]

I consider myself to be the only true member of the "irrelevant majority"; the rest of you may apply for honorary status.

Well now, since *you* are Irrelevant, I guess you are the deciding vote since Zoomie says you represent everyone else who has not posted here [:D]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
The problem is most of the folks in this thread read a line in the editor and scream, but have yet to actually play the game far enough to even know that what they are talking about is completely pointless. [;)]

So there I am in a PBEM game late 44. I could have 1000 Franks produced - if there were anywhere to put them. So now I go, "WTF? I can't upgrade Oscars?" and post in the forum. The response I get: "Well, you can restart your game..." DO you have any idea how *idiotic* it is to suggest that we should spend 1000's of hours playing a game, THEN restart after it becomes an issue?

You can't have it both ways. You can't say on one hand - Japan didn't have the resources so they shouldn't and then also say that if they do, they can't anyway. If as you say, you can't produce them when the time comes, then it does not hurt to have the upgrade capability there. If you add the capability to upgrade and you manage to produce more advanced aircraft, not having the upgrade path *does* hurt the game.

Have we heard that "on-the-fly" upgrades is even a "doable" change, yet?

[Oznoyng]

I could do it in my sleep. If they say they can't, it is more a question of "we don't want to" than "we can't".

[tsimmonds]

The resource system is already in the game so, unless you are saying that the screwed the resource system, what i choose to squander my resources on is my business.

Unfortunately, we must consider that this is very likely the case. The production system is a very simplistic simulation of a very complex process. It is the game not to give the Japanese player a means to control his production, but as a voracious machine into which the Japanese player must pour oil and resource points in order to be allowed to continue the war.

[Mr.Frag]

Have we heard that "on-the-fly" upgrades is even a "doable" change, yet?

It is simply a memory location with a value stored in it ... I thought you were a coder. Write a TSR that sits on top of WitP and lets people change their aircraft at whim to anything.

If you want to get really fancy, you can even have it subtract and add the right numbers to the pool. Should take about an hour.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I could do it in my sleep. If they say they can't, it is more a question of "we don't want to" than "we can't".

You have the source-code??? I get your drift, though, and agree...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Have we heard that "on-the-fly" upgrades is even a "doable" change, yet?

It is simply a memory location with a value stored in it ... I thought you were a coder. Write a TSR that sits on top of WitP and lets people change their aircraft at whim to anything.

If you want to get really fancy, you can even have it subtract and add the right numbers to the pool. Should take about an hour.

I gave up on trying to figure out the low-level details of how this thing is put together a while ago. I know in general how it is done because I know how GG writes and those that know him professionally confirm that he hasn't changed very much over the years. But beyond that, I wouldn't know with any preciseness how anything really works....

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Have we heard that "on-the-fly" upgrades is even a "doable" change, yet?

It is simply a memory location with a value stored in it ... I thought you were a coder. Write a TSR that sits on top of WitP and lets people change their aircraft at whim to anything.

If you want to get really fancy, you can even have it subtract and add the right numbers to the pool. Should take about an hour.

I gave up on trying to figure out the low-level details of how this thing is put together a while ago. I know in general how it is done because I know how GG writes and those that know him professionally confirm that he hasn't changed very much over the years. But beyond that, I wouldn't know with any preciseness how anything really works....

And who does TSR's anymore? That's a DOS thingy.... We in the real world write Windows Services....

[Captain Cruft]

I thought i was spelt D A E M O N [8|]

[Mr.Frag]

And who does TSR's anymore? That's a DOS thingy.... We in the real world write Windows Services....

That should be real amusing for the Windows 98 folks [8|]

[Mynok]

But if you want a say so in a feature, speak up. If you don't until AFTER a decision gets made, you akin to the person who whines about their government representatives but never votes...

Hooey. In a condition of limited choice such as the US two-party system, often neither choice is acceptable. Choosing the "lesser" of two evils is stupid in a context as important as government. A citizen has every right to complain about his representative whether he/she voted or not. If anyone has forgone the right to complain, it is those who voted for the winning candidate. I don't buy that argument either, but it is the only one with any sort of logic behind.

And the concept somewhat applies to this thread as well. We don't know what the acceptable options are. Since 2by3 will define what those are, if any, it is equally pointless for us "irrelevants" to join in and say what others have already said.

To me, it seems the crux of the problem is that we don't know what is being modeled by the fixed-path upgrade system. If it is reflecting actual historical upgrades that occurred, then I would agree that it conflicts with the design teams choice to include the ability for non-historical production choices. If it is reflecting something else, then let us know what it is, so at least we can judge the effectiveness of the model. I could understand fixed-paths more if it applied to entire plane type, but it does not. What were the designers attempting to represent by that, because any reasonable person is going to infer that it is an arbitrary limitation by the designers to somehow handcuff the production system.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

And who does TSR's anymore? That's a DOS thingy.... We in the real world write Windows Services....

That should be real amusing for the Windows 98 folks [8|]

People still actually use that??? My bad...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I thought i was spelt D A E M O N [8|]

You got a Linux GTK or QT version of WitP? Where'd you get that?

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

But if you want a say so in a feature, speak up. If you don't until AFTER a decision gets made, you akin to the person who whines about their government representatives but never votes...

Hooey. In a condition of limited choice such as the US two-party system, often neither choice is acceptable. Choosing the "lesser" of two evils is stupid in a context as important as government. A citizen has every right to complain about his representative whether he/she voted or not. If anyone has forgone the right to complain, it is those who voted for the winning candidate. I don't buy that argument either, but it is the only one with any sort of logic behind.

And the concept somewhat applies to this thread as well. We don't know what the acceptable options are. Since 2by3 will define what those are, if any, it is equally pointless for us "irrelevants" to join in and say what others have already said.

To me, it seems the crux of the problem is that we don't know what is being modeled by the fixed-path upgrade system. If it is reflecting actual historical upgrades that occurred, then I would agree that it conflicts with the design teams choice to include the ability for non-historical production choices. If it is reflecting something else, then let us know what it is, so at least we can judge the effectiveness of the model. I could understand fixed-paths more if it applied to entire plane type, but it does not. What were the designers attempting to represent by that, because any reasonable person is going to infer that it is an arbitrary limitation by the designers to somehow handcuff the production system.

Wow, you may be the first person I've ever heard take that point! Bully for you. And good summation, BTW...

[Sultanofsham]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You can break down this entire thread in one point: "I hate Nates, I don't want to have to wait for Oscars to upgrade!"

No its let us have a toggle so we can choose what to upgrade a group to on one side and on the other its you just want f18's, late war Jap planes need nerfing, Japan couldnt have made that many planes (never mind that the game as it is now will let you), I want a Allied PTO First On/Off too, magic box and any other silly argument over a toggle you wont ever have to use IF its ever put in.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
If you want to go down this path, fine, I have no issue with it BUT I expect it to be done *right* with all the *real* inhibiters that *REALY* controlled Japan's outcome, not some little box that lets you pick any aircraft there was and just start researching it and magically get it before any of the preceeding aircraft that made it possible have been created.

We are not asking for that. God knows how many times we've said that and you've gone off on some tear about something we didnt ask for. IF you have a problem with the way researching aircraft is done in this game please feel free to make a tread and complain about it. Quit trying to use it to say no to something it has nothing to do with.