AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

[brian brian]

I would love to face this as Japan. Any CW/French fleets basing past Aden would be a dead give-away.

[Stabilo]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I would love to face this as Japan. Any CW/French fleets basing past Aden would be a dead give-away.

Don't be to sure about that. CVP are weak in 1939 but the French and UK BB aren't. So surface combats are a real problem.

And don't forget that Japan will be in a steategic defensive role trying to protect their CONV against enemy SUB and SCS while the USSR and China attack on the asian mainland. Beside the military challenge it is a economic on: what has to be buildt with the few BP? Some CONV for oil supply? Some INF or MIL for China and Manchuria? Some PIL and CVP for the naval war? Some fighter to hinder the USSR performing a strategic air campaign against Japan?

Don't get me wrong this is no no-brainer-victoy-strategy for the allies but for Japan it is a hard time. Its Germany who has to win the war for the Axis here.

[brian brian]

maybe I'd rather be the whole Axis then, or like Steve mentioned, Italy would be free to roam right away. Germany could launch a 1940 invasion of the UK, and like someone else mentioned, there is no reason for Japan to allow more than the 1st surprise impulse. Japan's cvp might be weak, but the CW's are weaker and come from a home country very far away, and Japan has 3 NAVs at start. The Monsoon season wouldn't come until the summer of 40, so naval air would rule a lot of combats, barring those crazy search rolls. (I just lost the Shokaku and the 7 range Zero to a 'force' of three CW CA in a table top game). It wouldn't be pretty, but against a competent Axis, I'd call it a no-brainer-victory-strategy ... for the Axis. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just doesn't look all that great for the Allies unless the Japanese are totally blind to it. Who would supply the troops to really take things from the Japanese, especially without AMPHs or MARines? What would happen to the home country that supplied them? Manchuria would probably go, maybe Canton, but I doubt Shanghai would (on land this whole operation would be getting started just as winter settles in and things would develop pretty slowly). Russian troops couldn't leave the mainland. The Royal Navy would be hurting - the CW would be in an economic pinch too with a repair pool filling up steadily as their global convoy lines face pressure at many simultaneous points: the Italians would soon threaten links to India as well as easily setting up bases in French North Africa for a post-Vichy Gibraltar campaign; not to mention Kriegsmarine pressure in the Atlantic. I do like the idea of sacrificing the French navy, but they are only in it for a few turns, and don't have local home country supply sources for re-org like the CW would.

I enjoy the first half of WiF the most, with the lower counter densities and critical battles with low factor units, so this would be a fun game to play.

[Petracelli69]

Steve
 
Are you still lookig for input on this. The reason I ask is as MWif gets nearer have been thinking about the task of the Ai for the CW which in my view is the hardest country to play. Have been playing wif since the early 90's and the fourth addition and happy to post my thoughts if they would be of use.
 
cheers
Phil

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Petracelli69

Steve

Are you still lookig for input on this. The reason I ask is as MWif gets nearer have been thinking about the task of the Ai for the CW which in my view is the hardest country to play. Have been playing wif since the early 90's and the fourth addition and happy to post my thoughts if they would be of use.

cheers
Phil

Phil, post your thoughs here, if Steve can use them this is great, if he can't this is good reading for all of us anyway.

[Petracelli69]

Steve
 
My thoughts on play of for the CW.
 
Early war objectives
1. Protect your convoy lines and maximise CP's from neutral countries.
2. Support France
3. Garrison Gib
4. Guard aginst Sealion if looks likley
5. Garrison Eygpt
 
The reason protecting the convoys is at the top and early builds should concentrate on cp's pilots Nav SCS repairs is that without the convoys the Uk has no way of waging war against the Axis. At the start of global war the strategic reserve in the pipeline is from memory around 5 cp's depending on what oil rules you are using this in my view is far from sufficent and if not increased along with an icnrease in convoy protection can lead to serious ecomonmic problems for the CW.
 
The next thing to consider is the BEF to France, now ideally it woiuld be both Gort and Wavell with another 4 units, now this will certainly assist France allowing you to cover two hexs but the downside is Eygpt will almost certainly come under pressure and may be lost. Realistiscally probalby just Gort and another corps and an anti tank gun but will need to ensure that thransport life is avialbe whislt in France from the spring of 40 on wards as cannot afford to lose these counters because of transports being somewhere else.
 
The preservation of these corps along with the mech that arrives as a reinforcement possibly used in the BEF will assit in guarding against any raids. A sealion will only be likely to come once Gib has fallen and the Italians can join in. Gib should be defended with white corp is possible and Alex. The navy should assit as much as possible but once the Axis air umbrella arrives it is time to withdraw the fleet but leave the ground untis there. The reason being is that the fleet cannot be lost or take huge losses as this then reduces your ability to defend the CW and convoys.
 
This brings me onto ealry war builds in my view an amph should be started on the first turn as if Germany is not building naval untis or nav by the time the second instalment becomes due you can then put it down again and have an invasdion ability by 41. Even though your invasion capacity will be small it will mean the German player cannot ignore you and you can land an possibly start a logement such as around Bordeaux and drag Axis units away from Russia where the gfame will be won and lost.
 
As indicated earlier my priorty in the early turns are cp's pilots Nav, Ftr's, the two new big Cv's are ideally started before building Alex in 40.
 
With regards to Eygpy an extra armour piece is worht it's wait in gold but the difficulty with the cw is being able to afford to build it (see point 1) along with Ftr's and if your able to a Blenheim that you start the game with. With Eygpt it is easy alos to be out manovuered with landigns behind so the terr units are useful in zoc'ing up Palenstien.
 
With regards to the Far East I keep the queens out there at the start of the game and bring the Aus milita over to Singapore to garrion it and ideally another corps needs to be put there before 41. There is alos a need to garrion India against partisan as you cannot afford to lose resources to these annoying units.
 
In summary the navy is the CW strongest assest it alos takes the longest to build and to carry out an offensive actions against any of the Axis it will be needed it will also allow the flow of len lease to Russia. IMO the war is lost in Russia and the need to have a good lend lease by which I mean at least 5BP's from the start of Barb is a must.
 
Don't claim these to be fool proof but are my broad guidelines for playing the CW in the esrly war.
 
cheers
 
Phil
 
 
 
 

[brian brian]

those are all pretty true, good CW guidelines. Their Prime Directive is indeed to maximize production via safeguarding their convoy lines.....however I have seen players build both Sunderland flying boats for the CW when the Axis hasn't even spent a single BP on a SUB. So how much to invest in convoy production should be relative to how much the Axis is actually threatening the convoys. The Sunderlands have other fun uses of course, but there are more important things to build in 1940 if you don't actually need them.

and the Germans don't have to launch Sea-Lion after parading around the Eiffel Tower first, thankfully no rule makes that the case. Rundstedt parks himself on the Belgian shore, the KriegsMarines land at the mouth of the Thames, the Stukas flip most of the BEF in Flanders while the Royal Navy transports are on a run to Canada or South Africa, Rundstedt lands extra ammo supplies (Offensive Chit), and the Fallschirmjaegers land on London Bridge....shoe-string 1940 Sea-Lion is a fun throw of the dice, perhaps more likely in the computer game that is much faster to start over.

[composer99]

They also don't need to launch Sealion with Italian help. With a heavy investment in specialty units (including 1-2 supply units), sealift, and naval air, the Germans can make a pretty good run at it, no matter how well prepared the CW is, especially if they've whacked the BEF and sunk a few convoys.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Petracelli69

The next thing to consider is the BEF to France, now ideally it woiuld be both Gort and Wavell with another 4 units, now this will certainly assist France allowing you to cover two hexs but the downside is Eygpt will almost certainly come under pressure and may be lost. Realistiscally probalby just Gort and another corps and an anti tank gun but will need to ensure that thransport life is avialbe whislt in France from the spring of 40 on wards as cannot afford to lose these counters because of transports being somewhere else.

I am not convinced bringing HQ Wavell in France is such a good idea. Egypt must be safeguarded because of Suez. I think sending HQ Gort in France is enough.

With regards to Eygpy an extra armour piece is worht it's wait in gold but the difficulty with the cw is being able to afford to build it (see point 1) along with Ftr's and if your able to a Blenheim that you start the game with. With Eygpt it is easy alos to be out manovuered with landigns behind so the terr units are useful in zoc'ing up Palenstien.

cheers

Phil

I agree with that, and sending some FTRs and NAVs in Egypt is worth it, FTRs will protect the ports against the italian NAV ports attacks, the Gabianos with their long range are dangerous. Because i think it is often necessary for the british to leave a strong fleet in Alexandria. And some british NAV can keep the italian fleet from coming in the eastern mediterranean.

There is another strategy the italian can do with their Gabiano which is very dangerous, they rebase the Gabiano in Lybia near the Egypt frontier, and send the Gabiano in the Red Sea. Combined with the italian fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean, it cuts the supply of the british in Egypt. I saw the british lose Egypt that way 2 times. If you play with territorials, it is less dangerous because there are 2 TERR in Egypt in the setup in Fascist Tide and the TERR trace their primary source of supply in Egypt directly.

[composer99]

I like building out my ARM/MECH as the CW from the start of the game. They cost a lot of bps, but are worth it in terms of defending either England or Egypt.

[brian brian]

I like to give the French 3-4 Res and 2-3 BP through J/F, maybe some in Mar/Apr too. It is really tough on the early CW builds of course and gearing discipline is key. NAVs for the Eastern Med would be nice but not likely...I use any NAVs I can get on the board against the SUBs. I use the Eagle and the 2 factor Nimrod in the East Med, and hopefully the Indian Brewster Buffalo if lucky enough to draw it in the builds. If Italy wants to operate FTRs in the East Med their own supply will be vulnerable to the rest of the CW CV fleet.

The last two turns of French survival I send all their BPs to the UK or if the shipping is not available, to Fortress Bordeaux for post-Vichy shipment. This gives the UK the extra build point ooomph to start building some tanks. They arrive a bit later, but hopefully the extra French muscle slowed down the Germans an extra turn in RaW Vichy, or helped lower the German credits on the LoC Vichy Home Shopping Network. Those French loans are gamey as can be and a new rule cuts into that, which I think is good.

[praem]

I usually build Alexander on the first turn. Then bring him and/or Gort to France. This makes it possible to support france by taking an extra hex in the line.
 

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: praem

I usually build Alexander on the first turn. Then bring him and/or Gort to France. This makes it possible to support france by taking an extra hex in the line.

HQ Alexander arrives in the force pool in 1940 only.

[composer99]

You can build Alexander ahead from the start of the game.

[Petracelli69]

Good to see it's prvoked soemdiscussion. With regard to Sealion and the Germans lanuching it by themselves if you have been building nav and ftr especially the twin engine ones from the start of 40, in fact should have saids build them asap, you will be able to contest the north sea as the Germans will need to invade from 3 box. Even if they get to go once you can then move out with you ftr's and nav and BB's and CV's and blow the pitiful Kriegsmarime back to the dark ages.
 
A british player that leaves Dover underfended whith a Ger marne on the map deserves all he gets and if the Germans have built that is at least one ftr less you have to shoot down.
 
With regard to len lease in the early game I lend all the resources i can spare probably 2 may be 3 at a pinch in the first few turns to beef up the French as mcuh aspossioble as the longer it holds the better. Then as France goes down the toilet it gives build points to Britain.
 
As for cp's I build normally at least 2 a turn as your better of having to mayn than not enough and once France has goen you will need to re-route and need more cps and don;t forget your need to keep USSR in the war by lend lease as soon as Barb starts.
 
Phil

[composer99]

With regard to Sealion and the Germans lanuching it by themselves if you have been building nav and ftr especially the twin engine ones from the start of 40, in fact should have saids build them asap, you will be able to contest the north sea as the Germans will need to invade from 3 box. Even if they get to go once you can then move out with you ftr's and nav and BB's and CV's and blow the pitiful Kriegsmarime back to the dark ages.

Since the Italians also do not have a carrier fleet or long-range fighters to fight you with, do the Germans really gain anything, aside from shore bombardment factors that also carry a penalty in land combats, by putting in the effort to take Gibraltar so they can participate? If the Germans make an effort to go after Gibraltar, they may not take it until sometime in 1941 (since finishing off the French is a necessary prerequisite for a Gibraltar campaign); this leaves them precious little time to invade England before the Americans are in the war. A 1942 Sealion is probably too late (unless the Americans have drawn really poorly in US entry). The Germans do have enough production and a big enough army to start off with that they can have a decent size fleet, lots of lift, and a big enough air force to fight the British in England by 1941, with help from the Italians in the form of submarines, specialty units and yet more aircraft (and even a transport if the Italians use that gambit).
 
The Commonwealth, on the other hand, has limited and fragile production and is initially very short on army and air force assets required to defend England, Gibraltar, Malta, and the Suez Canal area, all of which are under threat in a Sealion situation; any losses in France only compound the danger. In particular, enough production must be focused on the army in 1939-1941 such that if the Germans get ashore the CW has the ability to stop them. The Royal Navy can only do the job for the CW if it (a) finds the Germans at sea and (b) gets good surprise splits.
 
The CW AIO should not count on the Royal Navy winning the Battle for England in the North Sea, nor should it count on human German players going for Gibraltar before invading England. Both of these can happen, but that doesn't mean they will.

[brian brian]

I have had fun with 1940 German-only Sea Lion. It's maybe something for the German AI to consider when facing a mega-BEF. When the BEF gets big, the beaches can't be covered as well. It is also an option to raid the Midlands; if you can get supply for one turn end you might be able to blow up enough British factories to make the US Entry hit worth it, not to mention opening up the board for the Italian and Japanese players. For me, I always leave the British MECH in Harwich until the BEF comes home, but with so many world-wide commitments to defend, the Dover hex rarely makes the cut but London has a stout defense. (See raid idea). As Germany, I like to definitely finish the Graf Zeppelin and maybe build the Marines as well, just to worry the British. Even if you never use the Marines offensively they still make a nice counterattack force in the Med later on.

[composer99]

[...] and maybe build the Marines as well, just to worry the British. Even if you never use the Marines offensively they still make a nice counterattack force in the Med later on.

 
Especially in conjunction (not in MWiF yet, of course) with the Schwimmpanzer. Try saying that loudly with a bad fake German accent without cracking up: "Schvim-pahn-tsa!"

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Personally, I would rather lose Malta than the Suez. Malta can be cut off from supply by the Italian fleet, while Egypt cannot.

Egypt can be put out of supply, it is just as easy as Malta.
Remember that CW units in Egypt use Le Caire as a Secondary supply source. Only the Egyptian units (i.e. the territorials) take supply from the Egyptian cities who are primarty supply sources for them.
The secondary supply sources need to trace back to a primary supply source.
So, to cut supply to Malta, you need to empty 2 Sea Areas of any Allied CP or TRS / AMPH.
To cut supply to Egypt you need to do the same. Empty 2 Sea Areas of any Allied CP or TRS / AMPH.
The only difference is that for Malta the Italian can do it by themselves, and for Egypt they need the help of Japan.
With the same player controlling both, I say it is not a problem.
I for one even already conquered Egypt with Japan, not only to help Italy, but for the objectives too. It was the bigger victory I ever achieved in WiF FE... ah.... memories of the good old days....[;)]

I am reading old posts on AI/Commonwealth to further increase my strategic skills at playing those.

Egypt can be put out of supply bt Italy alone with a long range nav Gabiano based near Egypt border he can fly into the Red Sea.

Suez becomes critically important if Axis goes for Gibraltar through Spain and is sucessfull. Suez becomes the sole point of entry for the allies fleets into Mediterranean. If Suez and Gibraltar are lost, you can forget about bringing down Italy. It happened in a campaign I played.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: composer99

Here's a thought for a summer '41 campaign for the CW (assuming Germany is attacking USSR). The AIO can add it to its bag of tricks.

Yes, if it want to loose. [:D]

The real thing is knocking out Italy, not playing in the Baltic which leads nowhere. The German activity that you will draw to the Baltic, you would have drawn to by attacking in the Med. Knockingo ut Italy is not only fighting around Saridnia, Sicily and the Italian Coast, it is also fighting for Tripoli and the Italian East Africa.

When I play Germany or Italy, there is nothing that I welcome more than a CW that invade Denmark in the summer of 1941. Easy to stop, easy to knock out, and leads nowhere for them. The complete contrary of a Med CW come back, where it is difficult to stop nearly impossible to knock away, and leads right in your heart. [:D]

This said, the AIO needs to know this trick that composer exposed, because :
(1) It needs to know how to loose (OK, it's a joke [:D]).
(2) There may be global circumstances inthe game that makes this move non costly for the CW and useful for them, but this is far from the norm IMO.

Though I agree that CW must concentrate on smashing Italy quickly. I do consider the "northern alternative" interesting. I mean going to Danemark can be good for the allies because it gives a base for aircraft going attacking the Baltic's convoys. Copenhagen is a strategic city because if the allies can take it, the Baltic is open for their navy. The Royal Navy can give shore bombardment to troops in Danemark if the germans try to attack, not everywhere, but in a lot of hexes. The allies can keep a line near the german border where germany can attack only from one hex or two.

I even consider attacking Norway as a western ally, because according to me, the germans have it too easily. They can get their 3 swedish resources, even in winter, so if the allies can take Narvik, it's a good thing. If they can conquer Norway and use Oslo for their aircraft and Narvik too can serve as a base to send aircraft to protect a convoy line to USSR. Although I never tried the Norway's invasion, I will try it someday.

And if Norway is conquered, why not attack Sweden and try to grab those 3 resources from Germany, or at least cut the rail line(s) to keep those resources from going into the germans factories? It's very aggressive from a western ally point of view, please don't flame me!

Norway can also serve as a base to put pressure on Finland or divert some finnish troops from attacking USSR.

Do you know that Churchill early in the war tried twice to push a plan for the invasion of Norway and there was a plan to even occupy the swedish iron ore mines? Chamberlain did put a break to it, fortunately.

But, even so, I would consider this if I have spare troops, I would concentrate on knocking down Italy first.