The return of tristanjohn

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Conversely, how assinine is it to assume that Mogamis little bullet factory in Tobali produces naval ordnance, aircraft and spare parts, tanks, or anything else in the Walmart catalog?

It doesn't assume it. The model assumes that if there is a whole pisspot full of supply at the location where the HQ is, then some of that supply will contain some of the things that are needed by the units and it will send them. Truthfully, I would not mind supply in more detail. At least that way I could get a division up to full strength without waiting months to do it.

See? Another one of those limits that affect analysis. Your argument: Coconuts do not equal 155mm Howitzers! My argument: Yeah, but I can't frag the SOB that has 40 of em in Saigon, but sends my division in Batavia one every third day for 3 months when I am due for combat in the Solomons in 2 months. Frankly, I wouldn't mind being able to get replacements and pre-position supplies. I could maintian a higher operational tempo if I had that power, not lesser. On the other hand, I don't think it would add that much to the game and would be a lot of work for little gain.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
The constant switch between war materiel and food in this debate is frustrating but it highlights the major issue. Which is it, food grown locally or manufactured war materiel? The supply should have been divided into too types, war materiel and general. War Materiel allows combat ops, supports the TOE replacement model and counters disruption of hardware (guns, vehicles etc) and the general which sustains (feeds) LCUs ie counters squad disruption.

This debate is over the effect of supply generation by resource centers upon the pace of operations. You would have the same issues if you added another "supply" and called it war material. The argument would just devolve to 16" shells vs torpedos vs DC's instead of food vs ammo. Unless you track ammo for each device and consumables required by each device, including production and current levels at any and all locations, this problem persists in one form or another. Ten iterations down the road, you'll have debates over the fact that the game does not differentiate between 16in/50 Mk 7 Gun ammo and
16in/45 Mk 1 Gun ammo, and the fact that it does not differentiate between AA, AP, and HE rounds. In the end, you will have made the game into a job.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Seeing as this wasn't done, reducing the ratio of supply at resouce bases and doubling supply production/resource point at HI/manpower bases sounds like the next best thing (moses, I think you suggested this furtherance of the general idea of reducing the resouce to supply generation ratio.

"Sounds like"? Yes. Imo, "Is after consideration and experience"? No.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: moses

P.S. I use the word 'abstraction' in the positive sence as a neccessary thing. I do not want to have to load my ships by individual supply items.[:D]

com'on Moses ya wimp......arn't you interested in a historical experience? I want to feel the pain in my temples as i place my administrator's hat on and try to invoice the specific loadout of every transport that enters my port. 25% capacity for torpedoes.....5% for butter.....8% soap.......29.87% .50cal ammo.......40%......30cal ammo.....8.8% K rations.......1% blow up dolls. (officially labled "entertainment items")

Don't forget to supervise the combat loading while your at it.... a turn should only take....what....3 hours.

[Skyros]

Can we include a mod for the black market so if you get the wrong stuff delivered you can trade it for the items you really need[:D]

I have 3 cases of scotch and 4 cases of Toilet Paper can I have the 16 inch shell now.

[moses]

com'on Moses ya wimp......arn't you interested in a historical experience?

I was a 'battle captain' for an infantry brigade. I remember spending the whole day tracking the progress of a few truckloads of AT missiles (and other mundane occurances) during lulls in our (mock) battles. When the lulls end then I got to monitor things while the commanders actualy make the decisions. Even that is pretty slow. "Moses how far has the 1st batttalion gone" "Sir another 200 yards in the last hour"

So basically I got to monitor the mind-numbing tasks and watch the exciting stuff.

Trust me, the historical experience is not all its cracked up to be.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I'm not suprised Japan has no problems early in WITP WTF should they?

Cause Ron says so Russ! [:D]

By the way Ron, have you actually played Japan in a game yet that went into 1943?

I've yet to play any side that long due to bug frustration.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Invade India and use captured supply, why thats madness. No army in history has ever conducted a campaign using captured supply. (Any supply in southern India would have to have been moved there by Allied player because there is not squat there to start with.)

I agree totally. This is one of my favorites for not making sense. Across time, the conqueror has scoured the countryside for supplies. The victor in ancient battles scavenged the battelfield for swords, spears, shields, armor, food, etc. Why is it so unfathomable that a Japanese artillery unit, having men but not a gun, takes a captured american 150mm Howitzer and captured ammo for same, and uses them? Why would an infantry unit lacking ammo for it's guns not pick up captured enemy guns, captured enemy bullets, and use those? Why is it so hard to understand that Japan used captured B-17's, p-40's , etc. Why is it so hard to understand that Japan imported many of it's aircraft instruments from abroad, and would likely be able to use ones left behind? Why is it so hard to believe that a hungry Japanese soldier would disdain Spam and starve? (Um, strike that last I can see how the Americans would leave Spam behind and let the IJA choke to death on it.)

[Nikademus]

LoL....how about one where the Allied player has to deal with grumpy French at Nomeau causing variable levels of spoilage ranging from 10% to 78%? [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

How best to do this? Like my earlier attempt with merchant capacities reduced to 20% of CHS levels and supply and resources in non mainland bases reduced 90% (oil increased by 90%)? Leaving as is may just result in the supply levels being high/low subject to opinion. Gutting it and being able to achieve historical goals would prove something. Perhaps 50%? What?

Since the complaints center around the stock scenario, that should be used. Show us the Uber-supply situation for Japan. I fought the SRA campaign as Japan and i wasn't swimming in supply.

My point is the stock sucks because in my opinion there is just way too much play with logistics. If we take the CHS and gut it like I said, and I can still meet the goals in first six months, that would be irrefutable (with final logistics totals of course). And if I'm going to invest time in trying to prove one point I may as well use that same time to actually test your A2A fix.

[moses]

Oznoyng: Its not hard to understand how captured supply can be used. But what I want to know is how is it so hard to understand that their are limitations to this practice.

[Speedysteve]

Nomeau

New base butt munch or did you mean NOUMEA?[:'(]

How about grumpy Ami's rebelling in Seattle due to local cat disturbances caused by Nik & Co?

[Nikademus]

The U-go offensive into Imphal factored in captured supply as a critical element. Seems the Japanese felt so in RL. Scary thing is....they almost succeeded in capturing a big supply dump.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I'm not suprised Japan has no problems early in WITP WTF should they?

Cause Ron says so Russ! [:D]

By the way Ron, have you actually played Japan in a game yet that went into 1943?

I've yet to play any side that long due to bug frustration.

So in other words you are talking about making changes to stuff with absolutely no knowledge or first hand experience.

Thanks for clearing that one up, I assumed you actually had some factual basis for this line of reasoning.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Can we include a mod for the black market so if you get the wrong stuff delivered you can trade it for the items you really need[:D]

I have 3 cases of scotch and 4 cases of Toilet Paper can I have the 16 inch shell now.

[Speedysteve]

In reply to Nik:

That's right. Didn't the Allies blow it up and take some stuff with them whilst the Japanese were a few miles away?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: moses

Oznoyng: Its not hard to understand how captured supply can be used. But what I want to know is how is it so hard to understand that their are limitations to this practice.

Problem is this is an all or nothing model so the all natuarlly wins.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

(Um, strike that last I can see how the Americans would leave Spam behind and let the IJA choke to death on it.)

Hi, I like SPAM

[Nikademus]

something like that....have to check Allen...either blown up or the Japanese were repulsed at the last minute.

[Nikademus]

SPAM SPAM SPAM la la la la

Another gift to the world from America. [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag



Cause Ron says so Russ! [:D]

By the way Ron, have you actually played Japan in a game yet that went into 1943?

I've yet to play any side that long due to bug frustration.

So in other words you are talking about making changes to stuff with absolutely no knowledge or first hand experience.

Thanks for clearing that one up, I assumed you actually had some factual basis for this line of reasoning.

So you are saying other peoples long running AARs are worthless? Playing this game (not sim) for three and a half years accounts for squat? Being a Pacific War buff all my life is of no consequence? From here I'd say I've batted a thousand with regard to my perceptions of problems with the game since UV. Unfortunately others are just opening there eyes. Look at the shit people are still pulling off after a year or so of fast paced no limit play. See any problems with overabundance of supply? No, then perhaps some folks have selective eyesight.

Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic exercise, regardless if they have good intentions or not. This does not do the game any darn good.

[Speedysteve]

From memory it was blown up. I read Allen (still am infact although limited time = no reading for 3 weeks now) recently.